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I am trying to use BIAB and RB in a live church worship environment, but it looks better on paper than in real life.
1. When I save my biab arrangement using the "bar settings" dialog to make changes to instuments (ie. mute guitar or back to normal etc.) the song loads into realband with truncated parts. In other words instead of a 5 bar intro with realguitar (as I programmed in biab) it will only be 3 bars. I know that RB starts -1 bar, so I even tried adding a muted bar in biab to compensate...no go.. it still truncates the real track wav file when loaded into realband.
2. When I freeze an arrangement in biab the realdrums revert back to midi drums in the frozen version. go figure...
3. I had high hopes for the conductor feature in a live church setting, but it is real buggy.
I had to give up on the idea until I could figure out it's idiosycracies.
4. The jukebox feature in RB chooses the order of playback of songs EVEN when I uncheck random playback.
I am using vista 32..quadcore 6600 processor- 4gig of ram-Emu 1820m audio box with asio drivers
Thanks in advance for ANY help
Ralph
Quadcore 6600 Windows 7-4 gig mem
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Quote:
1. When I save my biab arrangement using the "bar settings" dialog to make changes to instuments (ie. mute guitar or back to normal etc.) the song loads into realband with truncated parts. In other words instead of a 5 bar intro with realguitar (as I programmed in biab) it will only be 3 bars. I know that RB starts -1 bar, so I even tried adding a muted bar in biab to compensate...no go.. it still truncates the real track wav file when loaded into realband.
There seems to be some sort of bug going on right now. This can be worked around by exporting your BIAB song using the File -> Make a Standard MIDI file command instead of trying to open the BIAB sgu/mgu file directly inside RealBand. Make sure that you select the Opt to "Include 2 bar countin" when doing this, apparently that isn't working correctly when turned off for some folks. Also make sure that the little Bar Offset box at the right side of RealBand has a "-2" offset entered into it. If you have any RealTracks, export them separately as separated wav files using the RightClick on each one and selecting that from the menu popup. Inside RealBand, select New and then Open the MIDI file. That should bring in all the MIDI tracks, if any. Then use the Wave Files command under the File menu in RB -> Import WAV file command to import each of the wav files tracks to a track that you have already preselected. That should put everything into RealBand okay.
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2. When I freeze an arrangement in biab the realdrums revert back to midi drums in the frozen version. go figure...
Gimmie a bit to look into that. Had it working, forgot what it took (grin).
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3. I had high hopes for the conductor feature in a live church setting, but it is real buggy.
I had to give up on the idea until I could figure out it's idiosycracies.
If you could be more specific, perhaps I could help. One thing I noticed is that use of a hardware MIDI synth rather than software makes use of the Conductor a lot easier here. No probs when the hardware synth is operating. Software synths, like the DXi, work sometimes, depends on setup and a few other things, I think.
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4. The jukebox feature in RB chooses the order of playback of songs EVEN when I uncheck random playback.
With Random unchecked, playback is in alpha-nu order. I take advantage of that on gigs sometimes by setting up a folder and changing the filenames to suit the order of playback. For example: "001ShallWeGather" -- "002AmazingGrace" will force Shall We Gather to be played before Amazing Grace even though it starts with an S. All I have to do is click on the filename once in Explorer window to append the numericals in front. Also, use of the Shifted numbers (~!@#$% etc.) will force a filename to be played before any numbers. Like, "!AmazingGrace" with that exclamation point in front.
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I am using vista 32..quadcore 6600 processor- 4gig of ram-Emu 1820m audio box with asio drivers
That should certainly do the job, I for one would be a little concerned about the 1820 and the Patchmix in such situations, could add another layer of complication I may not like in live performance. For playback only, consider using the built in soundcard or perhaps installing a simpler PCI card like the M-Audio 2496 or something. Less is more in this situation. The built in soundcard is likely very good at playback and that's all you are doing at that point.
*Hire a piano player. Seriously. I'm lookin' for a new Sunday gig. Where you at? (grin)
--Mac
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Mac your amazing....Thanks. How do find time to help all of us whining little pups and still find time to do your own stuff? I'm in Beaumont Texas 90miles east of Houston my church is in a little town called Port Neches...Love to have be my music director...we pay $1.12 a week but you get to take home any left over pizza from the youth meetings. Thanks again.
PS It has taken me four years to get my head around patchmix (emu) just enough to make it play...I can't switch now, I've given it the best years of my life.
Regards,
Ralph
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Wow. I shoulda stayed in Texas. You guys is payin' prit near twice as much as we get here in Virginia.
But instead of pizza, I gotta have tacos, refries and chili iff'n ah'm in Tejas.
And Carne Guisada ever' once in a while, 'K? mmmmmm.
--Mac
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Quote:
But instead of pizza, I gotta have tacos, refries and chili iff'n ah'm in Tejas.
And Carne Guisada ever' once in a while, 'K? mmmmmm.
--Mac
Mac, that's just wrong, I've been gone from Leakey,Texas up in the Hill Country for 12+ yrs and now you have me remembering a little breakfast taco stand in Hondo that had the best Carne Guisada's and egg,bacon,papas breakfast tacos anywhere.
I'd make a road trip just for that and some Texas brisket BBQ
I may have to mask my IP because the NC BBQ police might be watchen.
Wyndham
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Ralph, I ran across this website on the 1820m emu box. You may already know this info but in case you can use it. Hope it helps http://www.tweakheadz.com/review_of_the_emu_1820m.htmlLater Wyndham
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Thanks Wyndham. I have a "fairly working" understanding of the 1820m. It's a good box without question. The user interface is flexable and DEEP, thats what makes it complicated. I have read and studied everything I can to get a comprehensive understanding of all the ins and out of it all and your link was appreciated.
Thanks again,
Ralph
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I've been following this thread and a few comments-
The 1820M is for a desktop PC, are you actually packing up your complete system and hauling it down to the church? You obviously can do that but virtually everyone I've heard talking about live work uses a laptop, not the whole tower system.
I too have the 1820M and you mentioned asio. On my system anyway, EMU's asio is buggy but you only need it for live midi recording or playing nothing else. Playing back a song using the Conductor only requires MME not ASIO so I use that except when I'm playing my midi keyboard through the system live.
The Conductor is a great feature but in a live church situation, it's very difficult to try to change the arrangement of a song when you're working with singers or a pastor who's working up the congregation and trying to cue the "band" on the spot. The Conductor lets you hit a number key on the PC keyboard and jump to another part of the song or loop the place where you're at. It will jump based on several parameters that you have to know about in advance. It can jump immediately regardless of where in the bar the tune is. I've never used that one because it will completely mess up anybody else playing or singing along. It will jump at the next bar on the one beat but even that is too confusing. To me the best one is to have it jump at the next part marker and you can place a part marker anywhere you want. The place it jumps to is preset by you so you may have a shout chorus for example, preset it as song section 3 and jump there any time you want by hitting the 3 key before the next part marker. Works great with one major caveat. The other people playing or singing live have to know what you're doing and how Biab works in advance . The problem I've run into before is having a singer work the crowd and decide to cue me to take the tune out or suddenly cue the bridge but it's already gone past the part marker I had set up for that. That means I have to wait until the next part marker before I can make the jump and if the singer doesn't understand how that works, instant train wreck.
I think in a church situation you're better off rendering your finished arrangements to an audio file and simply play them back using whatever you want for playback be it a cd player or even an Ipod. Some have talked about using one of those inexpensive portable DVD players with a 7" screen because you can easily see your song list. Just plug it into the pa. Other people can still play and sing along on piano or whatever and with a little rehearsal get everybody on the same page. It won't take long for you to go back home and tweak an arrangement until it works the way you want it to.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I think that desktop kind of obviously must live in the church, Bob.
At least, "let us pray" it does....
--Mac
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Thanks guys..Yea the desktop is part of my "orchestra pit". In other words it lives there. What I have used in the past was stereo tracks in Sound Forge 9. Set up markers and jump there with a keystroke (in my case a midi keyboard set to trigger the jump. It worked GREAT!!! I was the orchestra leader, the song went to wereever I told it as long as I triggered on beat. But the problem was there was no continuity to the song service, ie, one track was country, one was fully orchestrated, different drums, bass etc. When realtracks came alone I realized I could utilize the same "musicians" and have a song service that sounded the same from start to finish. The continuity helps the flow of the service, plus I had more control of the arrangement, I could stretch out the ending, slow it down CONTROL!!!. It seems like the perfect fit. EXCEPT, for the previously mentioned bugs. I have worked with the conductor and see its limitations and I think I can make it work in biab. However I am transfering all my songs to Realband, because I can't freeze the arrangements in biab without the realdrums being kicked out and replaced with midi drums. YUK!! And the tracks have to be frozen because of load time. If I could solve the drum problem I would be closer to a real world solution. I could use conductor and my Frontier transport has more function in biab.
Thanks for your help
Ralph
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I'll check into seeing how to freeze RealDrums with the RealTracks, seem to recall it is possible to do.
Now that you've provided the above info, it may be easier for you to record the output of BIAB directly into Sonar for every song and then use your Soundforge that you are already familiar with and works.
Some soundcards have a "What U Hear" setting, the E-MU doesn't but you could use S/PDIF cable from output of E-MU right back into input or even use analog stereo cables from one of the line outputs back to a stereo line input.
Set BIAB to run using MME/WDM drivers and set Soundforge to use either WDM or E-MU ASIO and all should work fine. Open Sonar first, then open BIAB. Record song from start to finish. If your version of Soundforge is pre-ASIO drivers, then make Soundforge the MME/WDM Windows Sound driver and make BIAB the ASIO.
--Mac
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Mac the problem with using Sonar is I loose the lyrics funtion. I send the lyrics screen to a small monitor in front of my singers and another feed to a video projector for the congregation. I will also send a feed of the chord screen to any guitar player or piano player. I play both so I Have my real-time chart playing along with the song...It could be beautiful...if I could have it reliable. I was using Sound Forge in the past using a stereo WAV file. I would set my markers and trigger it with a midi keyboard and have control over the flow of the song that way. But I would use tracks from different companies, with different musicians, volumes etc, and it had no continuity. BIAB/RB would be a boon to the small church-music department if it wasn't so tempramental.
Thanks
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I would do the work in RB, it can do much of what Sonar can do, and is solid enough to get it doen, i use it for live work, and love the lyrics and chord scrolling. You just might have to piece the songs together so that the changes and jumps are "canned" that would help the process, and still add power to the program.
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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I don't have any problem with the freezing and Real Drums but I'm using XP, maybe this is another Vista thing?
Please describe exactly how and why you need the Conductor, are you working with mostly a solo singer or a choir or both? I'm pretty familiar with it and could probably give you some suggestions there. If you need the flexibility of the Conductor then Real Band is out because it doesn't have that function.
With multiple monitors to shoot the changes to other players, you've got a pretty sophisticated setup going there. I think I would be inclined to simply print out the charts using Biab, less electronics to blow up at precisely the wrong time. If the players are any good, they can follow you if you use the Conductor to jump to a chorus or something. Just write A, B, C etc for the song sections on the chart in big black caps, they'll find you.
As much as I love the Real Tracks, in a loud and boisterous church the RT's are almost irrelevant. A good midi synth like the Ketron sounds great, it gives instant load times and allows for precise midi arrangements. Many of us have done live gigs using the lowly old VSC. In a noisy live venue even that sounds pretty good. Something to consider. The RT's sound great in a quiet recording studio or jazz lounge situation but a rockin church is far from that.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob thanks again for your input. Conductor would be simply for looping a chorus or jumping to a verse. I have figured it out to the extent that a real time jump is to dangerous. I would jump at end of bar or end of part. I am both the Pastor and ther Song leader so the pastor side of me is submissive to the song leader. The RT sound good in our environment, and like I have stated in previous posts I like the idea of the songs sounding the same (ie. same drums, same bass etc.) from song to song. I have been working this system for weeks trying to get a workable solution...and it is buggy. but the more I fight the components (lyrics, realtracks, realdrums transfers from biab to realband) the more manabeble it becomes. It would be significantly easier if someone could tell me how to keep my realdrums in biab when I freeze the arrangement. It wants to substitute midi drum...
Thanks Bob, Mac and everyone who has follewed this thread
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PB--
I keep my Conductor set to change only at end of current chorus (dropdown at lower right of Conductor window).
That way I don't have to be concerned about my timing of any command because if I can hit the right keys anytime during the chorus it will play to the end of that chorus and then go to wherever I've sent it, like back one chorus or to an end chorus or whatever.
--Mac
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Tell us exactly how you are setting up a song prior to freezing. Also, you haven't told us just what is your set up? You mentioned the Tranzport. I've never used one, are those functions ok? Do you have a choir? Things like that. Are use using a stock style that includes the Real Drums, or are you picking your own drum track using the RD window? I'm thinking the freezing problem has to do with that. If you want, pm me with your email address, I'll reply and you can send me a song file that's giving you problems and let me know how you would like to use the Conductor and why it's not working for you. Working live with Biab definitely puts you into the advanced area so I completely understand your frustration. It took me about a week of "immersion training" to get familiar enough to take my laptop to a gig and this is after being a casual home user for years. As it was, I was still posting a bunch of questions about it here. It's tricky, the last thing you need is a train wreck in front of a crowd.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob thanks for your interest in my situation. I will detail my situation and see if you get any insight. Currently I am using all RT as the instrumtaion on all arrangements, obviously including realdrums. I do on rare occation use a midi strack for stings and piano. I do all the arrangements in biab. I use alot of changes at bars..ie at bar 16 mute acoustic strum, at bar 24 all instruments back to normal. I think that feature is one of the hidden jewels in biab. It is accessed by "edit, current bar. Then i save as WAV. Right now I am using forte as my dxi. I have a great number of wonderful synths at my disposal such as a Korg M3, Akai samplers, Yamaha s30, Kork M1 etc. but I just can't intergrate them at this point because it adds to the compication factor. Then I load one wav file into Real band for each track. The reason I go to real tracks is because of the drums not transfering over when I freeze in biab. The reason the drums don't transfer is a mystery to me. Apparently it is a recognized situation...a bug. When my songs are in realtracks I make a jukebox file called sunday am or whatever and rename my songs "1trading my sorrows" "2shout to the Lord" so that then que up in order. Then I use my transport to start play. I have a home studio that is equipt with Sonar Producer and all kinds of stuff, and Real band is a step down in the function department for me, but I am trying to use it because it displays both the chord sheet and the lyrics. I use the standard realdrums that comes with the style I choose, I don't have a "choir" as such, its a "praise team" two or three singers. I am the Pastor as well as the song leader so I don't have a conflict on the stage (thank the Lord).The lyric entry is a real pain...but necessary at this pont. What I may do is bail out completely on RB and save a stereo WAV in biab and load it into Soundforge 9 like I did prior and control my arrangements with markers and a midi keyboard I link a avi file created in Movie studio another sony product with the word to the song and they play back in sync. It works GREAT. What I loose is the ability to have control over individual tracks..ie. pull the drums or bass out real time if my drummer shows up for church...Bob I would be glad to pm you my email info....I don't know how unless I just post it in this forum...Thanks again
Ralph
BYW this forum post is even acting goofy, if I take to long to write my response it times out..I've noticed it the last few weeks... oh well
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Just click on my name and use the email address in my profile. You can send a Biab file as an attachment. As to the forum timing out, just refresh the screen before you send a long post, that usually works. If it doesn't then do a ctl c and copy it just in case you lose it so you can do a new post and paste it back in.
Creating a stereo audio file is the easiest and safest way to do this but as you said, you lose control of individual tracks. You can do say 3 versions of each song and name them ...full, ...-drums....-guitar or whatever but Biab and RB will do what you want, we just have to get you going on how it works. You seem to have enough resources to get what you need within reason. I'm thinking a purchase of the Ketron SD2 could be just the ticket for you. The sounds are quite comparable to the Real Tracks, everything stays in midi so it's instant loading of each song, no freezing or Conductor problems or anything else. Anyway, send me a Biab song and we'll see what's up with it.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Thanks Bob. I will email you off forum. I have thought long and hard about a Ketron sd2. I have read all the hype and reviews and it looks good, however I don't realy need a new synth, I need a stable suite of software that will do as advertised. I still like the real tracks for the bulk of things...drums, acoustic guitar and bass. I am a 30 year guitar player and it is my main instrument, I have been a studio musician and studio owner for years, yet I don't like to play at church because I need to keep my attention on the flow of worship instead of chord changes. With all the logistics of making this new approach work, lately I can't consentrate on anything but the computer, but hopefuly that will change as I fine tune and get familiar with the process. I have been doing computerised worsip with tracks and Soundforge for about 5 years so I'm not new to the concept, just the switch from stereo tracks in Soundforge to Real Band and biab arrangements is new. I have used biab since the Atari ST days so I am familiar with the program, it is intergrating it into a live and interactive situation that is new.
Thanks, Ralph
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Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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