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Joined: Jan 2006
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Hello,
I don't know if anyone at PG Music actually reads these threads, or more to the point, even takes heed of them. Further, since I am probably so far removed from what, reading the previous comments on this forum, is the typical user, that maybe my comments don't even count. Anyway, here goes...
I bought the 2006 version of BIAB, and have used it on and off for my jazz play-along practice, and in this regard, it excels. Then for various reasons I stopped using it. I have recently started using it again after about a two-year break, and I have realised what for me as a relative newcomer are its greatest problems - how is it used, the user interface, and the learning curve/tutorials. In the meantime, I had upgraded to the 2008 version.
How is it used: The main problem is a failure to identify how will the product likely be used by various users. The product tries to cover its back by trying to be all things to all men, and ends up satisfying nobody, unless you are willing to invest the time the read all the tutorials, user guides, etc. I simply want to use the product as a play-along aid. I don't want the overhead of the huge options and features presented to the user. Better would be to prompt the user during installation what their typical usage patterns will be, and reduce the feature/option clutter accordingly.
User Interface: With all respect, the user interface seems to have been design by a software engineer for other software engineers. It is certainly not intuitive. The screen is completely clogged with feaures and options that probably no single user will probably ever use. All standard Windows applications have a toolbar option called "View", which is missing. Maybe the "Notation" toolbar option is meant to serve the same function. I can't see a great deal of change between the 2006 and 2008 versions, yet I have the impression that the latest UI has become more complex. In this respect, it suffer somewhat from the Microsoft disease - how to justify charging for user upgrades. In my case, in an attempt to simply the re-learning curve, I have downgraded back to the older version. The UI also makes use of colour codes for the Instrument Line (Bass, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, Melody, Soloist). I am colour-blind and cannot easily distinguish between green and red.
Tutorials: To get back to speed, I have tried following the tutorials. Again, they give the impression of having been written by an engineer, who believes that we should progress in the straight-line sequence A-Z as the best way to learn. In lesson 2, we are prompted to load the song called " L_BOSMED.MGU", without knowing where the song is actually located. We learn that there is a Visible Metronome feature, without an explanation of how to invoke it. Further in the same tutorial, there is an explanation about the General Midi Patch List. Why should the user reading lesson 2 need to know about this level of detail? The tutorial explains that to pressing the spacebar pauses a song, and that pressing the spacebar releases it. Instead, pressing the spacebar twice restarts the song from the beginning. Also strange, the word "improvise" doesn't appear in the help index. Is it possible to display/print the notations for the improvisation versions rendered by BIAB?
Please don't get me wrong, I am also an engineer, and appreciate the technical achievements reflected in the feature list. I'm a firm believer in the concept that the project is finished, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there nothing more to be taken away.
Regards,
Paul
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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PG Music certainly does read these Wishlist posts, and responds with features, a few of which are suggestions from me. There may not be any such thing as a typical user, so whose requested features would you take away?
I do have sympathy for your comment about the red/green colorblind issue. I have a child with the same problem. Options, Preferences, Colors can change many of the colors but to my knowledge, not the instrument indicators. In the latest versions, even more colors are used. During beta testing, there was discussion of several alternatives, and PG Music requested our opinions. I suggest you post a specific request to be able to alter just these colors.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Thanks for the reply Matt.
I would like to see a wizard that would set up the UI based on a user's usage profile. In other words, prompt the user for how they expect to use the product, and then reduce the set of buttons, windows and menus presented to the user, based on that profile.
In my case, I want to use it as a play-along aid. So I would like to be able to
- display chord play-notation for playing along
- display print-notation for easy printing
- print the improvisation rendered by BIAB
- easily transpose
- display/play the metronome
- play some exercises
- use some other useful novice-oriented things I haven't thought of ;<)
I hope that no one here, either other users or the people at PM Music, takes my post personally. I just wanted to give my impressions from a novice, first-time user perspective.
Paul
PS: Is it possible to search these forums for posts older than one year? Looking at my profile, I noticed that I posted some other messages some years ago, but I cannot find them using the forum's search feature.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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That's an interesting request, Paul - the wizard. There has been much discussion about the GUI in the past, but to my knowledge, not exactly that approach.
This forum software loses older posts. A tremendous amount of knowledge is regularly lost.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Joined: May 2005
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You can customize the toolbars. In the two rows to the right of the song title, I only have 6 buttons showing. Just the ones I use. Everytime I open BIAB, those are the only ones that show. Very convenient for me. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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+1
I covered several of your points in an earlier thread that I started.
BIABguy
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Journeyman
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Quote:
You can customize the toolbars. In the two rows to the right of the song title, I only have 6 buttons showing. Just the ones I use. Everytime I open BIAB, those are the only ones that show. Very convenient for me. Later, Ray
Ray, I tried doing that for a couple of weeks but got really impatient with the slow loading of the program.
The program starts up **each time**, reads which buttons/icons should be showing on the main page, and then proceeds to adjust. That is poor programming.
I went back to the default.
BIABguy
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Thanks BIAguy.
Can you post the URL?
Paul
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Band-in-a-Box Wishlist
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Another source of confusion and complication for me:
What is the difference between the pull-down item Window -> Notation Window (ctrl-W) and Notation -> Notation Roll Mode (ctrl-alt-N)?
Anyway, I'll stop complaining now, and try to read the tutorials again.
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The Roll mode gives us a "semi" staff view that has a vertical line and a horizontal line on each note.
Vertical line represents MIDI Velocity
Horizontal is MIDI Duration value.
Far faster than opening the manual Edit for each note one at a time, you can grab either line of any note visible with the mouse and reduce or extend those two critical values quickly.
--Mac
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BIAB 2009 opens up in less than 4 seconds for me. If your's takes alot longer, then you may have a defect in the program. Try "Return to Factory Settings". Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Expert
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Quote:
BIAB 2009 opens up in less than 4 seconds for me. If your's [sic] takes alot [sic] longer, then you may have a defect in the program.
Ray, we discussed this issue in another thread, remember, a while back.
If it takes less than four seconds for you that's amazing.
I'd disagree than longer means a defect.
The average, I recall, seemed to be closer to ten seconds or so.
- Mark
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Quote:
. . . what for . . . a relative newcomer are its greatest problems - how is it used, the user interface, and the learning curve/tutorials . . . The main problem is a failure to identify how will the product likely be used . . .
The product tries . . . to be all things to all men, and ends up satisfying nobody, unless you are willing to invest the time the read all the tutorials, user guides, etc. . . Better would be to prompt the user during installation what their typical usage patterns will be, and reduce the feature/option clutter accordingly. . .
. . . the user interface seems to have been design by a software engineer for other software engineers. It is . . . not intuitive. The screen is . . . clogged with feaures and options that probably no single user will . . . use . . .
Windows "View" option . . . is missing . . .
- Tutorials: . . . give the impression of having been written by an engineer, who believes that we should progress in the straight-line sequence A-Z as the best way to learn.
- In lesson 2, we are prompted to load the song called " L_BOSMED.MGU", without knowing where the song is actually located.
- We learn that there is a Visible Metronome feature, without an explanation of how to invoke it . . .
- in the same tutorial . . . is an explanation about the General Midi Patch List. Why should the user reading lesson 2 need to know about this level of detail? The tutorial explains that to pressing the spacebar pauses a song, and that pressing the spacebar releases it. Instead, pressing the spacebar twice restarts the song from the beginning . . .
- the word "improvise" doesn't appear in the help index. Is it possible to display/print the notations for the improvisation versions rendered by BIAB?
. . . I am also an engineer, and . . . I'm a firm believer in the concept that the project is finished, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there nothing more to be taken away. [The engineering definition of "elegance". -R]
Anything that follows is written in the spirit of making the incredible BIAB easier to use for myself and others. O PG, may you live forever! Hear our plea! Let not your hearts be hardened against our desire to walk in your ways! He'p me, Rhonda! All we are asking is that our beloved BIAB be made easier to use.
Paul identifies two primary issues: Program complexity, reflected in deep and detailed menus and toolbars, and difficulty in learning BIAB and accessing program functions, caused by the complex menus themselves, the lack of "programmed learning", and inadequate indexing. BIAB's very strength as a musical "Swiss Army knife" becomes the greatest obstacle to its easy use. A third issue is the inclusion of errors which are confusing and offputting, especially to the newcomer, who is likely to think that they are doing something wrong.
Many years ago Aston Martin introduced the Lagonda. The introductory model had, in addition to the usual gauges, forty four indicator lights in a 4 x 11 block. To its credit, the Lagonda included an "essential functions" switch which cut those glaring indicators down to 12.
A similar approach would be useful here. Imagine the usefulness of a BIAB optimized for live use--or recording, or chord entry--with ONLY those controls needed for same visible, instead of the clutter of dozens upon dozens of commands not needed for the immediate task. (The complexity of the GUI is precisely why I would not think of using BIAB live. And if there are ways around that, remember that it is the interface which puts me off pursuing it.)
BIAB is many things, many of which I am unlikely to use (the Conductor, e.g.). Major functions could be identified and separated and user customization made possible. "Personalized Menus", which in Windows are an annoyance, come to mind.
I easily become distracted while attempting to learn a new function. At first I was gleeful about the expanding concept or "Easter egg" effect--the process of answering a question raises more, taking me in directions I would not have gone on my own--but after a time it became tedious. Sometimes I just want the answer to a question. The tutorials take me in directions I don't want to go. The index is missing references to essential or highly useful information which does exist, it is just very hard to find.
I just looked back into the index of the manual for Version 11, in which I have made handwritten inserts for easy reference back to topics which I find important. Between "Visual Metronome, 261" and "Voicings, 50, 182, 286" I have entered "Voice leading, 230". Under "Volume" there are the subheadings "Allowing Changes, Changes, Setting". I have added "Enhanced Control". (Why was this missing in the first place?) Ironically, I see that between "Short Filenames, 276" and "Sight-reading, 127" I insterted an entry for "Shortcuts, 256". Come on, guys! (Note that, if PG are not going to address this deficiency, a printed manual is essential in order that all users may do the same.)
Two solutions come to mind: a third-party manual, and programmed learning. Users have been clamoring for a "BIAB For Dummies" for years. This is not PG's responsibility, but perhaps PG could enlist the help of specialists in technical writing and programmed learning to help create or revise the existing manuals and the tutorials.
Alas, I live alone. The empty side of my bed is filled with manufacturer and third-party manuals for Nuendo, Reason, RealBand (which I had to print myself), and BIAB. I LOVE THESE PROGRAMS. I am willing to do what it takes to use any program of value. But I have felt utterly overwhelmed by BIAB since Version 7, which came on a couple of floppies! And I am beginning to feel the same about RealBand. NOTHING IN THE PROGRAM ITSELF IS AT ISSUE. It is all about learning and usage. HELP US HELP OURSELVES.
Richard
P.S.: Please note that in any areas in which I am capable of doing so, I am willing to put my money where my mouth is. I am a writer, a Level II copy editor, highly organized and highly motivated to see these suggestions implemented. If there is any way in which I can help, I will. -R.
P.P.S: What Matt refers to as a "wizard" is known in programming circles as an "agent"--a software routine whose job it is to learn the user's habits, make suggestions and adapt accordingly. (The Microsoft "Paper Clip" is a feeble attempt at this.) This is high-end stuff, off in MIT Media Lab territory--the exact people I would like to see involved in improving PG products. These are the people who define computing and user interfaces. Peter, would you consider approaching them about consulting? -"Archie"
P.P.P.S.: From the back of the box, BIAB Version 11: ". . . Dr. Peter Gannon began creating Band-in-a-Box after being frustrated by difficult to use music software programs." Jeez, Doc, what were you using then?  -Ryś
Last edited by Ryszard; 05/06/09 08:58 AM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Posts: 60
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I recalled the last P.P.P.S. above by Ryszard : Quote:
P.P.P.S.: From the back of the box, BIAB Version 11: ". . . Dr. Peter Gannon began creating Band-in-a-Box after being frustrated by difficult to use music software programs." Jeez, Doc, what were you using then? -Ryś
BIAB has "put on weight" over twenty plus years, most of it since Y2K. BIAB has build-in quite a collection of mini "applets". It is good that some newly added power features are placed separately in RealBand to keep things in focus. In the same vein, it is suggested that new stand-alone program be created that focus on core functionalities.
Hence, we can have a fresh new generation maestro GUI that will just accept chords and lyrics inputs for songleading or karaoke playback with modern pickers for styles, sets, instruments, etc.
I'm sure PG and PGmusic are very well aware and concerned about today's consumers demands, and at the same time sustaining business. Our demand for variety has fuelled the growing lists of sets and styles.
Last edited by Michael Khor; 11/09/09 04:13 AM.
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Quote:
Our demand for variety has fuelled the growing lists of sets and styles.
I think that statement best explains the situation.
Responding to customer "Wishlist" demands is something PGMusic does very well indeed.
That also goes towards the creation of all those toolbars, menus and buttons, hard-to-find and decipher.
BIAB is quirky, but well worth that price of admission as there really is nothing else that even comes close in end result if you bother to work with the program long enough to find that out.
Perhaps there will be a day when the program is "mature" enough to be rewritten with that nice shiny GUI.
I'm not holding my breath on that one.
--Mac
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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