|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Hi Guys,
I'm sure many of you, like me, will have stood up in a live band somewhere, wondering just what speed the drummer's going to count in at and knowing for sure that it wouldn't be the same speed at the end of the song. Now, even I'm not saying this was a good thing, but I wonder if we're in danger of swinging too much the other way?
If you try to put a digital metronome on an older recording it doesn't work, because there are subtle timing changes as the band plays in sympathy with the musical content. With most modern recordings you can sync the metronome at the start and it's still in time four minutes later. Even tracks with live drums tend to be recorded to a click track to make editing easier and so many songs are written at 120bpm, simply because it was the DAWs default speed.
Is quartz-crystal-controlled tempo a good thing, or are we losing something here? Or is it just me who's losing the plot?
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Just reading my own post and it occurs to me that someone is going to point out that the variations associated with old tape machines would prevent the metronome syncing anyway. This is true, of course, but what I had in mind was something more in line with all those interesting Italian words which mean speeding up and slowing down.
Hopefully, unless you had a really bad tape machine, these should be distinguishable.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
ROG, I once commented on the liberties that Chet Atkins took with the tempo on tunes but I've forgotten the specific example that I posted. He varied the tempo about 10% throughout the tune but I think that was a part of his genius and actually enhanced the beauty of the particular piece.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,416
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,416 |
Quote:
all those interesting Italian words which mean speeding up and slowing down.
ALLEGRO = Quickly, Happily
MODERATO = Moderately
ANDANTE = Moving along. It literally means "At a walking paste".
ADAGIO = Slowly
Cool stuff when played by someone who knows what their doing and when to do it. 
Santana is always given as an example of player who takes liberties with tempo and it didn't seem to hurt his career. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,439
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,439 |
If it's a vocal chart, then I'd expect to have tempo variations as part of the overall expression, ditto instrumentals, with one major exception...
Dancing - if you have people dancing then a consistent tempo is very important. Now I know there are some exceptions but as a general rule this is true. Does it have to be absolutely precise? I don't think so, but you don't want much variation.
JMHO
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Once a Tempo is established, it *should* be held there throughout, unless and until there is a marked musical reason to change Tempo, such as Accelerando (qradually speed up) or Ritardondo (gradually slow down).
This is one of the things that separates the good musician from the mediocre musician.
That said, the point is to *strive* for good meter when playing with a live band. This means that ALL MEMBERS OF THE ENSEMBLE MUST COUNT FOR THEMSELVES at all times. Problems arise when you have to play in an ensemble with folks who have never actually learned that and think that the Drummer - or somebody else besides them - keeps the Tempo and they just play along with it. The problem is that the player cannot respond fast enough to make that happen correctly.
The Tempo problem actually *amplifies* itself when trying to make multitrack recordings. Five different instruments hitting at five different points in time makes for a blurred note initiation which will subtract from the overall performance.
And then there is the the fact that Music should reflect the human condition known as
DANCE.
The "dance" is best heard when all musicians are counting for themselves and thus know when to play every single beat and subdivided half or fourth beat of the piece.
Accept no substitutes if the Pursuit of Excellence means anything to at all to you.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,109
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,109 |
It depends.
I played in live bands for decades before we had an electronic beat maker. We tried to play as consistently as possible. That doesn't mean stiff though, swing feel, pushed beats, laid back beats, etc., were done because they felt right.
But on most pop songs, with the exceptions of the parts that are supposed to change, we strove to play at a consistent tempo.
That doesn't mean we were successful. And furthermore, it doesn't mean it would have been better if we were human metronomes.
I notice that often times the "B" section of a song might have been played a few beats per minute faster or slower (depending on the song) to change the feel. Some songs sped up slightly which adds more energy to the song. And other subconscious variations of tempo tended to make the song feel more alive.
When sequencing songs for my duo, I sometimes toy with the tempo a bit to see what happens. Since I often play the parts in live, I don't have to worry about the groove, it happens naturally, but sometimes rushing the B section 2 or 3 beats per minute can make a significant difference in the energy flow of the song, and put a spark into the dancers. When I play "Yakety Sax" I start the song a little slower than it's supposed to be played, and increase the tempo until by the end it is much faster than it's supposed to be played. It works that way. Other songs I might gradually increase the tempo 1 or 2 beats per minute for each repeat of the entire scheme.
But as I said, it depends on the song.
Starting with the Disco era in the '70s, certain forms of music required a metronome beat. In my early days of sequencing, I tried to inject a groove on some disco songs. The first one I tried was Lou Rawls' "You'll Never Find Another Love Like Mine" (written by the great team of Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff). After sequencing it, I spent a lot of time trying to make it groove, and everything I did made it sound worse. It was my first lesson that sometimes the groove of a song is no groove at all.
On another related note. Many of the rock songs before digital tuners had instruments slightly out of tune - especially guitars. Sometimes I feel that the intonation discrepancies are part of the charm of the song.
Back to tempo. It all comes down to artistic taste (whatever that is). There is no one correct way to make music -- in other words -- there is more than one right way to do it.
If it sounds good to you and if it works with the audience, it's good.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
I think this is the Chet Atkins piece that I had in mind. Listen especially to his solo for tempo changes. I love what he does but I speak Italian with a strong Irish accent so everything comes out as an Irish jig. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeR4G8519vIThe most beautiful rendering of Vincent that I've ever heard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 8,021 |
Quote:
Once a Tempo is established, it *should* be held there throughout, unless and until there is a marked musical reason to change Tempo, such as Accelerando (qradually speed up) or Ritardondo (gradually slow down).
This is one of the things that separates the good musician from the mediocre musician.
That said, the point is to *strive* for good meter when playing with a live band. This means that ALL MEMBERS OF THE ENSEMBLE MUST COUNT FOR THEMSELVES at all times. Problems arise when you have to play in an ensemble with folks who have never actually learned that and think that the Drummer - or somebody else besides them - keeps the Tempo and they just play along with it. The problem is that the player cannot respond fast enough to make that happen correctly.
The Tempo problem actually *amplifies* itself when trying to make multitrack recordings. Five different instruments hitting at five different points in time makes for a blurred note initiation which will subtract from the overall performance.
And then there is the the fact that Music should reflect the human condition known as
DANCE.
The "dance" is best heard when all musicians are counting for themselves and thus know when to play every single beat and subdivided half or fourth beat of the piece.
Accept no substitutes if the Pursuit of Excellence means anything to at all to you.
--Mac
Mac,
I agree 150%! I sometimes think that you and I are the only ones on the planet that do though. I just produced/engineered an album for a band that wouldn't even consider a click track.The sloppiness is hideous. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,304
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,304 |
I used to laugh out loud back when drum machines were first coming out. (Before "LOL"....)
All the old guard wannabe types who were too cheap to buy a drum machine and too lazy to learn how to program it all said the same thing: "It sounds too mechanical!"
Yet in the next breath, what was their complaint? "You just can't find a drummer who can keep perfect time."
Um, yeah, you can. Roland makes one, Alesis, Yamaha, Korg.... they keep perfect time EVERY time. They play the song at the same speed every time you perform it. They never get drunk and lose coordination. You only have to pay them once. Their heads never get old and stay that way because the drummer doesn't take care of his gear.
And they sound GREAT.
Strict tempo is a must. No excuses for sloppy timing.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Changing time is great -- if that is what you want to do. But if you are changing time without meaning to -- that's not so good.
Live, I want to hear a real percussionist, not a drum machine. I know I am in the minority here, but I am not interested in listening to some one play live to pre-recorded tracks out in public. I might as well just stay home and listen to a record. Live, I would rather listen to raggedy rhythms than a click track (as long as it still sounds good!).
Last edited by Kemmrich; 05/20/12 02:22 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
I seriously doubt if a metronome would sync with Chet Atkins in the earlier example. I've played along to drum machines and found them to be too rigid and unforgiving while a human drummer can compensate for timing errors. Call it a lack of talent or musicianship. In speech, we keep it interesting by varying our power, pitch, and pace. Why should our music be any different? Just another Irishman's opinion. Isn't music interpretation the reason we all bought our poetic licenses? I guarantee that Mac's rendition (interpretation) of a song would be much different than mine, does that make either of us WRONG?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
ROG,
Your post/question brought a smile to my face as I can only imagine what my best friend and drummer would have said if he were still with us today, something to the effect of what the hell do you want man? If I drop or speed up meter you complain and now you are asking me if I could do just that, but only when you want it done? Just do your own counting and play your guitar and leave me alone.
Gottta love the drummer!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,649
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,649 |
I can sure tell when a drummer can hold a tempo and when he can't. A drummer that can play along with a click gets bonus points here.
Can't beat the interpretation of a good drummer. I prefer a live drummer most of the time ... even if played on a MIDI recorded drumset and using sampled sounds. Playing ahead/behind the beat is an art, but the tempo is usually locked, once (as Mac said) "it is established".
Use of timing; one aspect of being a musician.
John Bonham was great at this. Rock solid but expressive.
Last edited by rharv; 05/19/12 07:36 PM.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,250
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,250 |
Quote:
Once a Tempo is established, it *should* be held there throughout, unless and until there is a marked musical reason to change Tempo, such as Accelerando (qradually speed up) or Ritardondo (gradually slow down).
I gotta go with Mac on this one. Nothing is more annoying than musicians who can't keep time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,607
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 2,607 |
I agree with Mac and Bob. It's a bad gig when the drummer or bassist or anyone in the band can't keep good time. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
I think this is the Chet Atkins piece that I had in mind. Listen especially to his solo for tempo changes. I love what he does but I speak Italian with a strong Irish accent so everything comes out as an Irish jig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeR4G8519vI
The most beautiful rendering of Vincent that I've ever heard.
This is a good example of an exception to the rule, an intentional rubato performance.
Works well in certain situations such as Ballads.
But do note that it is really a combination of [i[Ritardondo expression for a few selected bars from each phrase, typically towards the end of the phrase. In between those parts, there is indeed a good established meter that one can count along with and it is even in nature.
Find Chet playing some of his other songs and you won't find the Rubato in there. "Mr. Sandman"...
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
I agree. It is an expressive rendition but the "rubato" is within the beat.
Rubato time literally means robbed time and the time has to be made up somewhere.
The performer might hurry a few notes in a bar or phrase then slow them somewhere in the same bar or phrase. It all has to take place with a steady main pulse, it can't just waddle all over the place so much that the beat is lost.
Used well rubato can really add expression to an otherwise rigid, mechanical sounding performance. No one wants to sound as if they have swallowed a metronome.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,074 |
I've always wanted to use a midi controlled light (facing the band) to act as a metronome that would give all the musicians expressive liberty while maintaining a constant tempo that the whole band can always refer to. Especially if you use backing tracks and play with more than one person, it's easy for the backing track's tempo to get lost in the volume. But light cuts through sound.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,304
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,304 |
Interesting that you bring that up Pat. Back in the early 90s I had some drum machine that had 5v out on the rimshot. Our auto mechanic drummer and I rigged up something akin to race track pacer lights and there were 4 lights on the stage in addition to the drummer's headphones. Certain songs had a tendency to race. (One such song was Stevie Wonder's "I Wish". Another was the Isley Brothers "Who's That Lady" where we had an extended guitar solo. That guy would get excited and race, but with the lights, anywhere he walked on the stage with his wireless he had a pace light in front of him.) When we played those songs I would reach over to that drum machine, dial in the number of bpm we wanted, and running a pattern set to play only the sidestick sound I would hit the start button and off we'd go, with a light flashing on 1-2-3-4. Worked REALLY well. Might have been an Alesis. Maybe a Roland. Not sure. I do remember that you could also plug that into any synthesizer that had a 5v trigger input and it would trigger a sound. Did that for "You Dropped a Bomb On Me".
Edited by Anal Eddie to correct a punctuation flaw. (sigh)
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,723
Posts736,532
Members38,556
| |
Most Online2,537
Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean