Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
I had thought about the limitations of modern music, is it infinite or finite? A piano has 88 keys, does that not impose an eventual limit on the number of individual songs/melodies that can be created on the piano?
Bringing it closer to home, how many different melodies can BIAB generate? Is it conceivable that we could violate someone's copyright unintentionally?
Just fodder for thoughter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Sooner or later micro-tones (in between our 1/2 step based "western" music theory) will make its way into the mainstream. Most of us won't like it, because it is just too different -- but it will open another infinite number of finite possibilities (ha, ha).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,739
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,739 |
This is a mathamatical question. Maths and Arithmatic are the three things I hate the most!
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,921
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,921 |
I think that music can be considered effectively infinite. Given constant changes in technology and timbral differences alone, any change in an existing piece theoretically renders it a new creation. (I didn't say that it wouldn't violate copyright law.) I use Propellerhead Reason, partly as a sequencer, but partly because it is a massive software instrument. Just a casual sampling of what people have shared on their Music forum is enough to get a substantial inferiority complex. The variations and ingenuity in achieving same are impressive. Take all the existing parameters of pitch, tempo, duration, timbre, key, orchestration, and maybe vocals, and anything I haven't mentioned or thought of. I think that original music is going to be happening for a long time yet. I'm thinking in geological terms here.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,250
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,250 |
Quote:
I think that music can be considered effectively infinite. Given constant changes in technology and timbral differences alone, any change in an existing piece theoretically renders it a new creation. (I didn't say that it wouldn't violate copyright law.)
Take all the existing parameters of pitch, tempo, duration, timbre, key, orchestration, and maybe vocals, and anything I haven't mentioned or thought of. I think that original music is going to be happening for a long time yet. I'm thinking in geological terms here.
+1 on what Richard said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Hi Don. Interesting thought.
No matter how many variables there are, there is still a finite limit to the number of permutations, no matter how big the number is.
However, if we consider a repetition in a piece of music to be a variable in it's own right and we have an infinitely long sequence of repeats ...
No, just forget that, I agree with Richard!
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
Excellent observations all! Thank you, mates! (That's Brit or Ozzie)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,217 |
. >>>...I think that music can be considered effectively infinite. ...>>>
I don't disagree with Ryzard's comment, but he is inventing a new meaning for the word 'infinite.' If 'infinite' is a mathematical term, then music cannot be infinite since it is constructed of a finite number of finite elements. If, by 'effectively infinite' Ryzard means 'uncountable' or 'really, really a whole freakin' lot,' I have no problem with that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Quote:
Hi Don. Interesting thought.
No matter how many variables there are, there is still a finite limit to the number of permutations, no matter how big the number is.
However, if we consider a repetition in a piece of music to be a variable in it's own right and we have an infinitely long sequence of repeats ...
No, just forget that, I agree with Richard!
ROG.
ROG,
Re: a finite limit to the number of permutations . . . I am gald you decided to agree with Richard because I was just going to ask you to name all of them.
Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,475
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,475 |
Being a mathematician I take exception. There are only 10 digits - but using only those ten digits there are infinite sets of numbers which are themselves infinite (The Reals, Rationales, Irrationals, Integers, sets (like the Cantor set), various algebras, etc.) There are two "kinds" of infinite; one is countable like the set of all positive integers and by using proof by induction method I can show that the set of rational numbers are also countably infinite because I can essentially "map" each rational number (one-to-one - a.k.a injective) to an integer thus; the rationale set is also countable infinite (these items and methods can be found in most any first year Abstract Algebra, Topology, and some times Real Analysis (aka Advanced Calculus) text. By reapplying the logic as it where: 10 digits (88 keys), and infinitely countable positive integers (notes one after the other infinitely - and yes there can be repeats just like 10, 100, 1000, 10000, .... think of the map of 1= c and 0 = b then cb, cbb, cbbb, cbbbb, ....). Since music (and I am not arguing that it is good or bad music) is nothing more than a set of notes (disregarding, tempo and other attributes) I propose that the set of all music is countable infinite (akin to mapping integers to rationales) However, I leave as home work for the reader to show Larry
Last edited by Larry Kehl; 09/15/12 09:04 PM.
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,439
Expert
|
Expert
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,439 |
To take a more philiosiphical approach than Larry; given that music is an expression of the human spirit, I ask the question: Is the human spirit finite?
If it is, the so is music, if it isn't, then I propose that music is infinite too.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258 |
Quote:
This is a mathamatical question. Maths and Arithmatic are the three things I hate the most!
LOL LOL LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,664
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,664 |
In a real sense, it doesn't matter. Is the thrill of hearing a strummed chord on a guitar diminished knowing that you're not the first one to play it? Or is the blues less interesting because it's a finite form?
Music is interesting because of the feeling it evokes, not because it provides infinite variety.
But... The number of permutations is probably enough to serve us a couple lifetimes. After that, the new generation just forgets (or ignores) what came before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,636
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,636 |
In theory there are more time signatures than there are numbers (and this is only one varable in music).. so do I still have to show my homework? And because a piano has 88 keys does that mean that is the note limit? Why not choose flute and limit the note number even more .. (?) Always wondered why they didn't add one more octave to a piano to make it an even 100 keys.
Make your sound your own! .. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
The human condition itself dictates something more to this than a mere mathematical computation of all possible combinations, though.
In other words, the things that people are able to hear and understand are indeed a finite situation.
Using the history of such things that were once not understood nor enjoyed by the majority population in Western Music alone, such as the Tritone, parallel fifths and octaves, the Sharp 9, etc. we see that it takes time for even one "new" music development to take hold and become part of what the majority uses to make the muse happen -- and what the majority are able to hear, understand AND accept as "viable".
And so it goes...
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,987 |
I appreciated all of this input. Very valid points.
Mac opened another pathway with the term "viable." It does not mean that the structure of "viable" music will necessarily follow any mathematical, predictable formula. However, perhaps the key elements of a viable melody loosely follow mathematical rules dictated by algorithms.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Wait awhile . . . So let me get this straight, if I know how to play both a G and an A chord and I am working on D does this mean that when I master the D I still will not have mastered "all" music? Later,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,311 |
Oh no!
Does this mean that there are some other chords which I don't know about?
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,302 |
I have been writing a lot in the key of H lately..... I goes okay until I hit the subdominant K and the dominant L.... and the M minor we wont even talk about....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023? 2. Send it to us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,475
Veteran
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 2,475 |
Quote:
The human condition itself dictates something more to this than a mere mathematical computation of all possible combinations, though.
In other words, the things that people are able to hear and understand are indeed a finite situation.
.... --Mac
Mac I concur with your first statement but the second statement takes some analysis
While a single human being MIGHT only be finite "...able to hear and understand are indeed a finite situation" not provable (yet), but for the sake of argument I will concede that point. However, the union of all human beings, if you allow me to add just "one more", then rinse and repeat is the very definition of countably infinite; hence, what the human RACE is able to hear and understand is again countably infinite.
However this, as many have directly and indirectly pointed out, is not a pure math/logic problem. It is more esthetic and emotional it asks for the actual ART of music and I assume that to mean a collection notes/sounds that are "pleasant," "worth listening to," "has mutually agreed value AS music," … or that would be "called music by a majority of a collection of people," and that is probably finite.
Because even though lots, and lots, and LOTS of "music" has been recorded, played, published in just my life time - a large portion of recent "music" (last 20+ years) is NOT MUSIC. It's is simply collections of notes/sounds (?) at a rapid metronomic pace (evidenced by club music, trance music, etc. -that to my dismay has invaded the air waves, internet, CD's, living spaces, … as the new "pop" music)
So maybe the finite limit of music is nigh (I hope not).
Larry
Win10Pro,i9,64GB,2TBSSD+20TBHDDs,1080TI,BIAB'24,Scarlett18i8,Montage7,Fusion 8HD,QS8,Integra7,XV5080,QSR,SC-8850,SPLAT,FL21&others,Komp.14,IK suite&others, just a guitar player-AXE FX III &FM9T, FishmanTP, MIDIGuitar2, GK2/3'sw/GI20
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums66
Topics81,635
Posts735,276
Members38,522
|
Most Online2,537 Jan 19th, 2020
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|