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Good post 90 dB. Did you know that 90 dB is the OSHA mandated limit for occupational noise exposure for an 8 hour workday?
NIOSH says it should be 85 dB.
Sorry, I let my daily work nerd talk creep into the discussion.......
Hence the band name. We've found that 90 dB is the best SPL for our little rig (600 watts/8 Ohms) playing restaurants. Loud enough to have some thump, but not knock the front table's drinks on the floor!
Regards,
Bob
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Thing is Mac, there are also good cover SONGS.... Singing Someone To Watch Over Me, in my eyes and ears, has a different connotation than playing Mustang Sally to death. There is a subtle difference between homage and play crap just to get a bar tab.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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<...> You'll be loading out and driving home at 3:30 AM dodging the drunks on the highway. Having fun yet?
The traffic is really light at 3:30 AM - no rush hour jams. Loading equipment? How many people pay big money for a gym membership to lift heavy objects? But I can't justify the drunks on the road part - but some of the young inexperienced drivers and the elderly over-medicated drivers in the daytime are something to watch out for too.
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Yes. Entertaining people, taking away their cares and making them relive their best memories is more fulfilling than most anything I can think of. It's a privilege to entertain people, even if you have to play "that list" to do it.
+1000 on the privilege part.
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<...>
Bad Performance is bad performance, no matter if it is a cover song or an original.
<...>
There are good cover bands, there are bad cover bands.
There are good original acts, there are bad original acts.
As with anything else, perhaps the bad outnumber the good.
<...>
Defense of the mediocre never made any sense to me.
Sturgeon's law: 90% of everything is crap
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<...>
As for whether it is better or not to play your own improvised solo or attempt to nail the wellknown solo from a target recording in a cover song, my view on that is that there are certain songs that contain solos that are actually musical hooks and in those cases the journeyman musician must both be able to determine if that is the case plus be able to learn and play that certain solo convincingly enough to pull it off and that seems to work better in those instances, judging from audience approval.
Cover or original, I'll go with Duke Ellington's famous remark, "IF IT SOUNDS GOOD, IT IS GOOD!"
--Mac
And Karl Hass's frequent comment in his old radio show, Adventures In Good Music, "There are only two kinds of music, good music and bad music."
And I suppose that depends on the listener.
And I don't remember where this one came from:
"You can play for yourself, you can play for other musicians, or you can play for the general public. In either case, if you're good enough, you will get the audience you asked for."
I've played for the general public all my life, and they haven't let me down.
So what is a living? I'm not getting rich as a musician - we had a shot once but it slipped through our fingers. But I'm still making a living, paying the mortgage, living in a nicer neighborhood, and enjoying myself - never feeling like I'm actually working.
Would I be making a better living if I was making more money but spending 8+ hours on a job that felt like I was working? Doing something I'd rather not be doing? Or worse, actually disliking my job like so many I know? I don't call that living myself.
Life is short. Although the clergy promise an afterlife, there is no guarantee. So I'm going to live this life as long as I can, and have as much fun as I can, within the limits so if there is a "happy hunting ground" after this, I'll be invited in.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
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This discussion got way off course, veering into "doing A cover tune" vs "doing 3 hours of copy tunes"
No, it got off course from "Could You Live From Making Music?" to a copy-original-play-or-not thread.
At least there are a few that, like myself, feel that you CAN live off of making music, and I will assume that it is at a level that THEY are comfortable with....and THAT is what the question was really....
The WAY you do it is irrelevant, are you DOING it is....
As a side note, today I got my 3rd "royalty" check for songs I have playing around the world in "muzak" play lists......I am glad I sold out my artistic soul to place these songs, that were just sitting on my HDD, out there.
Out for about 70 tunes I sent out only 33 have been picked up, but 33 have been picked up & are working for me...and that is cool!
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"The traffic is really light at 3:30 AM - no rush hour jams." We had a regular gig in Key Largo once, and had to drive the "18 Mile Stretch" home every night to Miami. Scary ride. Water on both sides and drunks in the middle!  Regards, Bob
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I never played Key Largo, although I did play Key West a few times. Rooms were included with the gig.
Yes the drunks on the road are bad. My insurance company says people talking on cell phones are just as dangerous. Day or night, you have to be careful while driving.
Right now I mostly play a quad-county area, for yacht clubs, country clubs, retirement developments, and restaurant/lounges that cater to the baby-boomer crowd. It's a rare day when the gig goes past midnight. And the traffic is very light at that hour. I consider that a plus.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
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& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Thing is Mac, there are also good cover SONGS.... Singing Someone To Watch Over Me, in my eyes and ears, has a different connotation than playing Mustang Sally to death. There is a subtle difference between homage and play crap just to get a bar tab.
I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
They put some munny in the bowl.
As Les Paul so famously said in his autobiography, it is the working stiff who pays our salary, who comes to the venue to be entertained and to have a good time. Those "working stiffs" are actually the people who pay the musician's wages. Les said that there are some musicians who want to force the paying customer to listen to whatever the musician wants to perform, even if they have to tie the audience to the barstools to keep 'em in the joint.
Perhaps that's what you are really complaning about, dunno, but I can tell you that a performer can make a better living by responding to whomever their audience happens to be at the time.
--Mac
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<...snip...>
I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
<...>
Perhaps that's what you are really complaning about, dunno, but I can tell you that a performer can make a better living by responding to whomever their audience happens to be at the time.
--Mac
Many years agoI was in a jazz band and someone came up and asked for Patsy Cline's "Crazy" (written by Willie Nelson). The piano player refused and did it with an attitude that alienated the customer. 'Tis a shame. The chords to "Crazy" are not bad at all, better than a lot of jazz tunes, the melody is no more simplistic than a number of jazz tunes, and we would have done it our way. But the guy let his attitude get in the way.
In contrast, back in the 1970s I was in a disco trio playing a small lounge in Miami. Somebody asked for "Night Train" which is hardly a disco song. We played it and he gave each of us 3 $20 bills. Not bad for 5 minutes work, and $60 back they was worth what about $250 is today. Besides, I like "Night Train" it's a nice little blues number written by Jimmy Forrest who I think was in Duke Ellington's band at the time.
If they ask, and if I can, I play it.
If they ask, and I cannot, I complement them on their choice (even if I don't care for the song) and apologize. If I know something close, I'll try that.
If enough people ask for something I don't know how to play, and it is something we can cover, we'll learn it.
If you stand on stage long enough, the public will let you know what they want to hear.
And all of it is much better than climbing telephone polls, making sales calls, solving someone else's computer problems, doing someone else's taxes, driving a truck, removing a gall bladder, working in a retail store, managing employees who might not really want to work, or any of the other things people in the real world do for a living.
And not having to work when you are making the money to pay the mortgage is what I call living.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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[/quote}I've been in performance playing Jazz Piano in my little jazz trio and someone has requested Mustang Sally.
I played it for them.
They put some munny in the bowl.
--Mac
In the Baton Rouge area I often get request to play some Swamp Pop, not my fovorite to say the least but because the customer is always right I have about 4-5 tunes in my rep that get me by on an occassion like this, and yes it feeds the tip jar. Now will I play a regular 100% Swamp Pop, I don't think so. Not because I think I am above it, but because that it is just not what I do, therefore I would not feel that I am giving my audience the best possible product they are paying for.
In fact I could have had a weekly gig 7 miles from my home playing a 2 hour Swamp Pop dance for 250.00. My thought was the best thing to do was recommend another musician who loves and kills Swamp Pop, I did he was hired results, everyone was happy including me.
Later.,
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Hence the band name. We've found that 90 dB is the best SPL for our little rig (600 watts/8 Ohms) playing restaurants. Loud enough to have some thump, but not knock the front table's drinks on the floor!
But do your amps go to 11? You see THESE go to 11.....
Well, could you make like 10 be 9 and then 10 would be higher?
But these go to 11....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
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It's a rare day when the gig goes past midnight. And the traffic is very light at that hour.
This is why I loved the pick up bands that I worked with, most of them played all the animal clubs, where we were packed & out by 12:30....well before all the drunks caught up with us! 
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And all of it is much better than climbing telephone polls, making sales calls, solving someone else's computer problems, doing someone else's taxes, driving a truck, removing a gall bladder, working in a retail store, managing employees who might not really want to work, or any of the other things people in the real world do for a living.
this is a very subjective observation, but it's being served up as absolute truth. You should at least qualify it as opinion.
It's worth noting that the things you mention as being inferior to the life of a musician are highly desirable to a lot of folks. I know people who do all of these things and more, and they would do it for free if they didn't have to pay the bills. Yes, lots of people love what they do as much as musicians do.
on the other hand, I know people who have made their whole living with music, and they're bitter, burned out and jealous of friends who went the other route.
Its also worth mentioning that you couldn't get most people in front of an audience if you threatened them with a gun. Not everybody wants that kind of exposure.
The nice thing about living in a relatively free society is that we all get to choose our poison.
The bottom line is that all professions are worked by some who hate the job and some who feel like they're living the dream. Happiness is a function of attitude, it cannot be bestowed on the worker by the job.
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Hi Pat,
Perhaps not in that response, but in other responses in the same thread I think I made it very clear that being a career musician isn't for everyone. No career is for everyone.
And it works both ways. A band mate I played with 35 years ago went into the construction business. He eventually became a contractor building huge homes for the very wealthy and he makes a lot of money, has a big house, lots of expensive toys, and so on. He is burned out on construction and when I visited him a few weeks ago, he told me that he made a wrong turn and he doesn't want to be the guy who dies with the most toys anymore. But it's too late to go back to playing music. He still has his B3 but he has hardly played in in the last 35 years. And he has a huge mortgage, Porsche payments, high property taxes, and lots of other debts on his shoulders.
I know a surgeon who got burned out on the medical profession and is now teaching high school.
My father got burned out being a printer/typsetter and counted the days until retirement from the time he was in his 50s (very sad).
You can get burned out at any profession, not just Music. And the people who get burned out doesn't mean that the next person will do the same.
And a lot of people get into the music business for all the wrong reasons. Things like access to the girls, easy access to booze on the job, late night hours, it seems easy, it's 'glamorous', and so on. If you don't get into the music business because you absolutely love playing music in front of an audience and want to do that for the rest of your life, do something else.
Joseph Campbell's most famous quote is "Follow your bliss." If your bliss is playing music, building houses, climbing telephone poles, performing surgery on humans, driving a truck, being the I.T. rep, doing other people's taxes, farming, managing a retail store, writing websites, fixing motorcycles, selling furniture, landscaping, or whatever, then do it. On the other hand, if you are doing it not because you like it, but because it brings home a paycheck, gets the girls, or some other reason, you probably won't be very good at it and you will probably get burned out on it.
Back on topic. Yes you can live from making music. At least for the people born in my time. I'm not so sure about the youngsters though. I think there are fewer opportunities as the government becomes more merged with corporate power - in other words as our Republic becomes less democratic and more Fascist (per Mussolini the inventor of Fascism)
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Benito Mussolini
The era of the small business is dwindling rapidly. Ma and Pa businesses are being replaced by the big box stores - the Mega-Marts (Wal Mart, Guitar Center, Target, Costco, etc.). Live entertainment is being replaced by the corporate sales/propaganda-media masquerading as entertainment-media in your living room - the TV. The USA is gradually turning into a nation of "wage slaves" (that's what the corporate bosses call you) and I was lucky to be born at the end of the era of small businesses. And a band is a small business.
If you are young and are thinking about making a living doing music, do it because you love music, because you love your audience, because you have to play music, and because it's your bliss. If not, find your bliss and make that work for you.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My father got burned out being a printer/typsetter and counted the days until retirement from the time he was in his 50s (very sad).
Notes, based on that comment, we are now starting to connect here as far as the general theme of this thread. Imagine how it is mentally for me knowing I can NEVER retire due to bad planning and no retirement funds.
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And a lot of people get into the music business for all the wrong reasons. Things like access to the girls, easy access to booze on the job, late night hours, it seems easy, it's 'glamorous', and so on.
THESE are the people I refer to with my perceived "anti-cover band attitude". And I really don't have that attitude, though some have taken it that way. It's that bunch that think music is a good career because it is easy that I am talking about. In one of my early replies to you, I said "YOU do it right". You actually work at this. It's that other group who never practice individually, never meet as a group to rehearse and generally "mail it in" will forever be hobbyists in my mind and my opinion. Those who refuse to TRY and write a song because they think nobody will ever like it. How defeatist is that? How is that NOT setting the bar low so you are sure you can jump over it? I have (sadly?) lived my life setting goals way too high and not reaching them. I was a really good baseball player when I was young and was 100% sure I was going to play in the pros. I was a good musician and was sure I could be a star. Obviously I did not become either of those things. Now, I believe in my writing and WILL someday have a major player use one of my songs, but it's going to take a lot of hard work, but musically and technologically. I'm up for it.
Just an aside here to explain "me", the first and last time I went skiing, it was with 2 people that knew how to ski. We took the lift to the top of the hill, and I immediately went to the slope with the black diamond. I don't "start slow". I dive in. Now, to be honest, I also need to tell you that the first run down that hill didn't go well, but when I finished tumbling to the bottom, I got on the lift and went right back to the same hill. 6 or 7 tries later, I made it all the way down without falling. And somehow I manage to avoid a major injury!!
I told you that to tell you this. Because of that perspective, I viewed playing in cover bands as only the first step, a skiing lesson if you will, but there had to be another level to which I would aspire and eventually achieve. I never got there, but not because I didn't try. The aborted mission to go to LA and show them how it's done, the constant driving to work harder and be better. (Which is why I can't keep people in a band - I DEMAND commitment! We rehearse when I say we rehearse and anything short of your own death is not a valid reason to miss one. Don't even THINK you are going to come to my rehearsal with your McDonald's bag and eat your lunch on my time. Change your guitar strings at home before you get to rehearsal. Music starts at noon, not 20 after. You punch a time clock at your job. You punch one here too. It's called commitment. And that's MISTER B@stard to you.)
You can look at your past as a series of failures or as a series of experiences that forced you to learn and grow from them. I am in the second group. I believe that I never lost a game. Time just ran out.
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If you don't get into the music business because you absolutely love playing music in front of an audience and want to do that for the rest of your life, do something else.
And when you DO pick that something else to do, be the best you can be at whatever that something is. Drive yourself until you can not possibly be better at it. It may take your entire life of trying to get there, and you may never get there, but always keep trying. Be THE best ditch digger or meat cutter or plumber or chef or car mechanic or landscaper or carpenter you can be. Never settle and be content with mediocrity.
Outside of my 40 hour job, I have a small computer repair business (small because I am scaling back in deference to age and available energy). It makes me feel like I matter when someone calls me and says "Dave referred me to you because he said you are really good at this and I need help." This is the same to me as someone calling Notes to say "I want to hire you because Sam said you are very good and your band would be perfect for our function."
And that is why I prefer to see an original band than a cover band.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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I think what we're starting to talk about now is boredom threshold. Some people can do the same job quite happily all their life, but many others can't and once you cross the boredom event horizon, there's no way back. This is probably why most of the people I know, including musicians, hate their job.
They do say that variety is the spice of life ...
ROG.
Last edited by ROG; 10/06/12 11:04 AM.
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I DEMAND commitment! We rehearse when I say we rehearse and anything short of your own death is not a valid reason to miss one. Don't even THINK you are going to come to my rehearsal with your McDonald's bag and eat your lunch on my time. Change your guitar strings at home before you get to rehearsal. Music starts at noon, not 20 after. You punch a time clock at your job. You punch one here too. It's called commitment. And that's MISTER [Email]B@stard[/Email] to you.
Hey I worked for you!!!!
Seriously, I was a hired side man for 5 or 6 years of my career in music for radio & fair circuit performances by a certain act, and I treated it just like the job it was, and did all the things that you mentioned. The practices were paid also, it is called a biz and to make $$ in it you treat it as such.
If you are demanding something like this for your "once a year show", and are not paying, good luck. Just an IMHO...
The reality of this is that most of the time this stuff is just a given to every musician that does make a living playing, it's called being a pro. It IS hard to find committed folks for ANY project anymore, that is for sure....the old work ethic for ANY job, be it laying train track or serving food, is no more....
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Hey I worked for you!!!!
It would have been an honor!!!
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If you are demanding something like this for your "once a year show", and are not paying, good luck.
No, for that show I am one of the minor side players. Pretty much told to shut up and play and keep my opinions to myself.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Eddie we can't agree more on this.
Whether you are a musician, plumber, printer or whatever, whether you are in a cover band, jazz band or originals band, you have to treat it like a business.
If you show up late for rehearsal, show up unprepared for rehearsal, show up late for the gig, take too long of a break on the gig, pay more attention to the drugs or member of the opposite sex, or have any number of other lax work ethics, you cannot be in my band.
You have to learn and play your part to the best of your ability, you have to skip your breaks when the crowd is up and a break would be inappropriate, you have to have a fun loving attitude on stage even though you are serious about your music,
...and to put it in a nutshell...
Our band has a product and we are in direct competition with our friends in other bands. If we want to be able to work and charge the maximum going rate, we have to do whatever we can to provide a better service to the entertainment purchaser than our friends in the other bands. And when I say whatever it takes, I mean whatever it takes.
And that goes if you are a cover band, tribute band, original tunes band, jazz band, rap band, Mariachi band, or whatever.
And if you don't do that, someone else who does will get more gigs than you do.
If you want to make a living playing music, you have to be better than the next guy.
Of course, it doesn't hurt to be well-connected too, but most of us do not have that option.
---------
Bored you say?
I don't get bored with music. There are always new songs to learn, new instruments to learn, new places to play, new people to meet.
I started out playing drums but quickly moved to sax. Now I play sax, flute, wind synthesizer, keyboard synth, vocals (the hardest one to learn so far), bass, computer, I still play drums but on electronic drum controllers, and my newest instrument, lead guitar.
I make my own MIDI backing tracks for my duo.
I learned how to make user styles for BiaB out of curiosity and ended up starting the Norton Music business where I learned how to run a 'real' business, write HTML and publish my own web pages, and work the shopping cart (and it was mail-order before that).
I haven't got time to be bored. I turned of the cable TV and disconnected the antenna in the 1980s - didn't get a digital converter either. I've never seen even one episode of The Simpsons, Seinfeld, Taxi, Sopranos, MASH, Desperate Housewives, American Idol, Cheers and many other shows I hear about. The last football game I watched was in the 1970s.
I haven't got time for TV. Talk about being bored doing the same thing over and over again! I can't see how people watch the same football/baseball/basketball game or the same sitcom over and over again. To me that's boredom. I'm doing stuff, improving my skills, involving mind and body, and the time passes too quickly.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 881
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 881 |
Quote:
.....take too long of a break on the gig.......
THIS was one of my biggest pet peeves, I don't know how many times I would hit the stage at 14min and STILL be sitting behind my drums for another 3 to 5 min while the rest of the band slowly made their way up one by one....not every band ,just one. And I could NEVER figure out how it was the best paying one!
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 6,705 |
Quote:
Quote:
.....take too long of a break on the gig.......
THIS was one of my biggest pet peeves, I don't know how many times I would hit the stage at 14min and STILL be sitting behind my drums for another 3 to 5 min while the rest of the band slowly made their way up one by one....not every band ,just one. And I could NEVER figure out how it was the best paying one!
Add to this long pauses in-between tunes, a band member or two doodling on the strings or keys in-between tunes and my biggest peeve, extended play for each tune. I have been to events where a band will play only 3-5 tunes in an half hour span. So no matter how good the band I am usually up and walking after the third song of the set.
Later,
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Henry Clarke: Revolutionize Your Band-in-Box® Tracks with Regenerating Function
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
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