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I'm no fan of facebook, but I understand where people like the guy Jazzmammal encountered are coming from.
Shakers and movers are often of the opinion that it is publicity that makes you a star, not talent. They've proven it by giving air time to people who are marginally talented, but whose message matches what they want the world to hear... and the person gets well known.
But it costs them money to do the PR. What they're looking for now is the act that has already done the PR and already has a following that will benefit them at little or no risk
And why not? There's an abundance of acts knocking themselves out for just a little opportunity and recognition. Why would they not pick cherries?
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If we just take into account the conversations we’ve had on the “Off Topic” forum about what constitutes a “musician” and the willingness of so many forum members to call people “musicians” when they can’t even play an instrument, is it any wonder that the general public devalues people that actually have the ability to play “live” music without electronic aids?
I imagine early man saying that people who hunt with guns aren't real hunters. REAL hunting involves the skill of getting close enough to score it with a knife or bow. And certainly, that would take some different skills. The gun hunter forced into the bow hunter paradigm might not do as well, but the same is true in the other direction.
This gets back to my definition of talent/skill being the ability to do something that can't be duplicated easily. As possibilities expand, people tend to develop expertise in ever-widening directions.
What makes a purist different from other thinkers is that purists usually reduce the definition of something to one very specific application... such as, only one who plays acoustic instruments is a musician. Free thinkers on the other hand, don't deny the specific application... but they also look for ways to expand a paradigm into new territory.
The Blue Man group fascinates me. They play nothing in a traditional way, but their performances combine sight, sound and theatrics into a presentation that is far more interesting to me than watching a guy play an acoustic guitar for two hours.
Each person gets to decide for him/herself what entertainment means.
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...I took a lot of flak on here for suggesting that only people who can play traditionally recognized instruments that don’t require electricity deserve to be called “musicians”. (Aka wood and strings, … brass and wind). I was out voted.
Since the musicians on this forum have willingly devalued actual “musicians”, why should we be so surprised that the general public has done the same?
Just some food for thought.
I can't speak for the line about devaluing actual "musicians" for I value musicians (don't need the quotes, either). Perhaps the definition of what constitutes a musician appears to be in jeopardy, a conversation for another day. Do not overlook that fact that Realtracks, Live MIDI tracks and MIDI Supertracks are recorded by real musicians, top notch, who are compensated for the task.
Well, right now I'm thinking how close-minded such a blanket statement seems.
I remember a time when, for example, Bluegrass players would not allow a single amplified instrument onstage with them. Not even a Fenderbass (that's what we used to call the electric bass, regardless of mfr.) was allowed onstage, even if no acoustic bass was within miles of the place.
These close minded performers also seemed to go out of their way to say derogatory things about any amplified stringed instrument. I know BobC surely knows about this situation.
Well, that generation got older, retired, died, whatever, and a younger generation, more apt to accept *change* came along and the result was a big shot in the arm for the Bluegrass genre in general. While there are still limitations there concerning certain amplified instruments (don't show up with a plank guitar and pickups) there have been quite a few interesting developments in the genre simply due to the acceptance of, say, an electric bass player. These same younger generation Bluegrassers also began to unabashedly record covers of Rock, Pop and Commercial Folk Music songs, but still paying tribute to the roots of the bluegrass ethic.
To say that simply because a certain musical instrument player is not a musician simply because their instrument uses or requires electricity in order to be played exhibits a prejudice of the highest order, my man.
You mention horns as being somehow more "legitimate" up there.
Does that include Saxophones?
Well, the Saxophone was invented by Adolph Sax sometime in the late 1800s.
There followed more than one hundred YEARS of prejudiced musicians, music profs, students, aficionados of orchestral classical musics, etc. who spent an inordinate amount of their time talking and writing about how BAD Mr. Sax's invention was and why it was not to be considered a "real" instrument.
Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Sonny Stitt, John Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Cannonball Adderley, Wayne Shorter, Stanley Turrentine, Grover Washington Jr., Dexter Gordon, Benny Carter, Jerry Mulligan, Michael Brecker, Stan Getz, Ornette Coleman, and possibly hundreds if not thousands more great musicians didn't get that memo.
As for electricity and musical instruments, the list of virtuosos who have had to plug something into the AC outlet in order to utilize their instruments is legion.
Again, it is the same issue as I've put forth concerning MIDI.
It ain't the type of musical instrument, the problem you have likely has a lot more to do with hearing people who have not put the time to good use, have not done what it takes to practice properly and have not bothered to go for Strong Performance.
I live amongst a generation that doesn't seem able to look inwards at themselves too much, a generation that typically blames *INANIMATE OBJECTS* for problems found, but never the human being for simply operating that object in a wrong fashion.
--Mac
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Mac,
Poor wording on my part caused you to totally misunderstand my point, especially about the “electricity” part. I actually wasn’t including electric instruments such as guitars, keyboards, etc.
I was simply trying to draw a distinction between playing a musical instrument as opposed to simply punching buttons on a rhythm machine, computer or other electronic device.
Some folks are willing to put the people who have their music electronically created for them by devices into the same category as people who can play actual musical instruments. I'm not one of those folks.
That was what I was referencing when I mentioned "devaluing musicians".
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 01/18/13 02:12 PM.
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Well, even considering that aspect, I've found that there are DeeJays and there are DeeJays.
Some of the youngsters seem to exhibit a lot more talent at the game than others, just like when Guitar Playing is the objective.
Have enjoyed a local CoolJazz ensemble that mixes it up with Drums, Bass, E Guitars, Sax, Singer, Percussionist - and a DJ who does the record scratching thing along with sampling and must say that their act works well.
This kid is doing a lot more than just pushing buttons. Changing vinyl, finding the exact spot on the recording desired, cueing it up in earphones and then placing it n just the exact spot of the performance kept me watching to see what neat little thing he'd come up with next.
I also had a bit of fun with it, as he was sometimes cueing bits off of old jazz records that I thought I really knew from listening and practicing, but had never really heard perhaps but one note or phrase taken out of context like that. Miles. Trane. Diz. etc.
These kids are working up their THING, and while it may not be my cuppa tea exactly, I recognize good if not strong performance. And if they keep at it, that good may just end up being strong.
When confronted by musicians from my age group knocking that which a younger generation is doing with music, I like to think back to my Dad's viewpoint about the guitar, be it acoustic or electric. He always told me to stick with the "real" instruments I already was learning to play, the Trumpet and the Piano. No matter how many billions of dollars people made with guitars, he was adamant that the guitar was merely going to prove to be a passing "fad". He took that and other prejudicial notions to his grave. I've tried to not fall prey to such illogical perceptions. With varying degrees of success.
--Mac
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Mac,
I never said that being a DJ or using computers or other devices to create music doesn’t take skills. We both know it does.
I just don’t consider them musicians unless they can play an instrument.
We’ve had that debate on here before so there’s no need to have it again. I’m in the minority on this and that’s okay. It’s just opinions.
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I don't know if the kid I referenced who was doing that impressive DJ work is a "musician" or not. He may be. He might play a mean guitar. Or he might not.
Bear in mind my other references, though.
There were people I knew in my life who still had not accepted the saxophone as being a "legitimate" instrument, ditto the guitar. They, too, refused to append the "musician" term onto great musicians who played those two instruments.
Those folks are for the most part, gone to glory.
The two instruments - and the musicians who play them plus the audiences who enjoy hearing and viewing them being played, are still here.
Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about,
--Mac
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Mac, Quote:
Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about
If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder. 
Just sayin'.
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If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Yes it would Bob but not immediately. You first join a union as an apprentice, go to all the union schools, accumulate so many hours of ojt, THEN after several years of this you're a journeyman welder.
The point is that kid doing the scratching is very talented with good ears and good rhythm. You could think of it like a Talking Drum like the tympani player who hits it and then grabs the tuning handle so the drum gives you that long Booooooiiiiinnnngggg rising sound you hear occasionally. Is that orchestra percussionist a musician? S/he certainly is.
That sort of thing is why I keep gravitating towards Abelton Live. Trying to get past all the warbling screeching stuff in order to figure out what that program can do is certainly difficult for me but still that program is pretty cool. Same thing with loopers that someone mentioned. I've watched some videos of champion loopers, (yes grandpa, they have very large regional and national looping contests, where have you been?)and I really like the concept of that. The reason is an audience can tell you're not simply playing to tracks, you're creating the whole thing live, from nothing, right in front of them. That's the definition of a good show and I think it's great. It's just that what they're looping is not my thing but still it's a good show. I'm pretty sure with the right software I could create all the different backing tracks for a song like Green Dolphin Street or something live, on stage, and when I'm done and it's all smoking along then play the head and solo my butt off. I think that would go over pretty good because then the audience can see exactly what I'm putting into it. Will I ever actually do that in some club? Probably not but I may just set that up at home and if I do I'll have a friend come over and video it and I'll put it up on Youtube. Just for fun.
Anyway, these kids have plenty of talent, just as much as our generation does, it's just in a different direction and it's very hard for us to grasp it. You really have to get out more, not physically but on the internet, do some serious Youtube surfing, you'll find some very interesting stuff but yeah, you get to wade through a lot of crap too.
Damn, I sound like I'm preaching again, sorry about that. It's just that for me at least I cannot sit in my own insular little musical world and vegetate over the past. I'm sort of like Miles Davis when he suddenly quit his classic straight ahead jazz stuff and came out with Bitches Brew and did a complete 180 into some pretty far out stuff. He was asked many times to go back to his classic style at least for one tour but he basically said no, he's said all he can say in that genre and it's time to move on. You do that and you wind up being your own cover band. Not that that's a bad thing monetarily mind you but it certainly is artistically.
Bob
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Quote:
If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Just sayin'.
Actually, you've got it backwards. One must first prove their ability on the job as a welder in order to be considered for membership. Apprenticeship and all that counts, as do certain certified welding schools. There is also the various underwriter's tests, such as the old Hartford License for pipe welders, in which they must demonstrate certain abilities by performing actual welds which are then proof tested by pulling those welds apart with machines. Every part of the pipe can break but your weld areas.
Years back, joining the Musician's Local also came with an audition, plus recommendations from other working musicians. That's sadly all but gone now, although there are still the character recommendations.
--Mac
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Quote:
Mac,
Quote:
Here's one for ya to think about; If that young band I referenced makes it big and wants to play more venues in more states, at some point they are going to face having to join the Musician's Union in order to play those venues.
Dimes to donuts, the kid scratchin' the records will then become a Union Musician.
Something to think about
If joined the Welders Union it wouldn't make me a welder.
Just sayin'.
I'm laughing out loud here.. this is a great discussion between two real thinkers! Hats off to both of you!
Oddly enough, I agree with both of you, depending on how I define musician. If you make the word synonymous with "instrumentalist", then I agree with Bob.
On the other hand if you make the word synonymous with the phrase "One who makes music" then I agree with Mac.
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You do that and you wind up being your own cover band. Not that that's a bad thing monetarily mind you but it certainly is artistically.
Bob
very profound observation, Bob
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I'll throw one more constraint into the definition of a musician:
I play several instruments, some acoustic, some electric, some software, some hardware... but I don't consider myself to be a musician because I play by ear.
When people ask if I'm a musician I typically say "No, I'm just a guitar player..."
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Quote:
It ain't the type of musical instrument, the problem you have likely has a lot more to do with hearing people who have not put the time to good use, have not done what it takes to practice properly and have not bothered to go for Strong Performance.
I live amongst a generation that doesn't seem able to look inwards at themselves too much, a generation that typically blames *INANIMATE OBJECTS* for problems found, but never the human being for simply operating that object in a wrong fashion.
If you can not control what you are using, then it does not matter what it is, it sounds like garbage. And in this situation, I have NEVER heard a solo or duo that uses midi backing track sound close to real, ever...
As for "great thinkers"....strong opinions is more like it!  And that is the generation that I live in....little faces & all 
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Studying history, I find that many Great Thinkers have also held Strong Opinions.
To me, that only indicates a Passion for a subject.
--Mac
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"And in this situation, I have NEVER heard a solo or duo that uses midi backing track sound close to real, ever..." You got to get out more, man.
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Last night I went gig-hopping, checking out the local live music scene. One restaurant had a two man act (no trax). They both played acoustic guitar, both played the same chords with capo on the same fret
(they didn't even go for the variation they could have had by playing the same chords in different positions! )
The thought occurred to me that the business owner could have saved money without sacrificing quality if he had only hired one of them and made him play beside a mirror.
As usual... with two acoustic guitars and no other tricks up their sleeve, three songs into the set I'd heard everything they were going to do.
The next club had a funk band, and they were really tight, with a lot of original songs having complex passages where they all played long sequential harmonies in perfect but weird timing. But the couple I was with turned to me and said the same thing I was thinking: "If only they had horns!"
Based on the number of people present and the cover charge I paid to get in, I doubt they collected enough to pay the 4 piece, let alone a 7 piece with horns. So here's a case when I would have loved some tracks in the background.
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You got to get out more, man.
So true! 
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Quote:
The thought occurred to me that the business owner could have saved money without sacrificing quality if he had only hired one of them and made him play beside a mirror.
I did this once, the club owner told me I was "twice" as bad. Rim Shot!
Later,
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I'll bet you were beside yourself when you heard that.
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