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7th grader keeps practicing on his school rental, won't tune properly piece o you know what.
Gotta feed the addiction for him. I filled his .mp3 player with classic jazz and it took. Ask him what his favorite jazz tune is and the answer comes back: "Theme For A Lazy Girl" by the Bob Crewe Generation. No, it's not really jazz, and no I didn't put this on the .mp3 player, but he found it on Pandora and loves the sax lines in there. Yes, 7th grader listening to this of his own volition.
I'm looking for the level of instrument that will carry him through to when he has his own part-time job and wants to buy his own.
Send me a PM if you might have something for sale.
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Scott, the tuning might have more to do with the neck, the mouthpiece, the choice of reed strength, and if the octave key is out of adjustment. That's just for starters. Is this horn really out of tune with itself, according to a teacher?
And what brand is the current sax?
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" Is this horn really out of tune with itself, according to a teacher? "
Yes. I really can't hear it when he's practicing just by himself. I'm pretty sensitive to out of tune-ness against instruments that are in pitch - less so when the instrument is purely solo. I will find out the brand tomorrow.
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All saxophones are out of tune with themselves. I had a Selmer Mark VI tenor for many years, it's the holy grail of saxophones, they are now going for $5,000 or so. It was not in tune with itself, and quite difficult to play in tune compared to a more modern horn.
I have a silver plated King alto built in 1925. It was a top-of-the-line sax in it's day. The intonation variations on this horn is very extreme. But it was built with heavy brass (no longer available for some reason), has a thick silver plate on it, and the result is that it has the voice of an angel. I wouldn't trade it for a new horn any day.
I now play a MacSax that was made in Taiwan to my specifications. There are only two in the world like it. Mine -- and someone else who liked mine so much he had them make a copy. The intonation is better than my old Selmers (I've had 3), better than my old Grassi, and better than my old Couf, much better than my King, but I still have to compensate each note except for the one I tune up with.
Each sax has it's own intonation signature, some notes are sharper or flatter than the note you tune up with. When in school band, they made each of us come in on our own time to learn the signature of our instrument. We sat in front of a Strob-o-conn (primitive tuner) and played long notes, noting which ones were sharper or flatter than the concert Bb (tenor C) that the band tuned up to.
Then we were to play long notes humoring them until they were in tune, and then holding them in tune as long as we could. (tighter lip on the reed raises the pitch, less pressure lowers it). This builds muscle memory.
Once the signature of the sax has been established, and you know which direction to lip the note you have to use your ears and your lip to play in tune. There is no sax made yet that you don't have to do this with.
A bit of my own opinion about jazz. Let him play whatever turns him on. Jazz is great, but let him take baby steps first and play whatever he enjoys. As people mature, their tastes in music change.
When I was in high school, I played classical music in school, and rock and roll after hours. The band director teased me, calling it rack and roll, but encouraged me to be in a rock band and to get gigs. In high school I was excused from marching in the Orange Bowl parade on New Years Eve because the band directors though a gig was more important than one marcher in a parade.
I was playing the music I loved at the time, I was playing at school dances, occasional night clubs, Teen Town, and other venues, and I got to meet girls that way. I've since played many different types of music, including being a regular in a jazz jam that had people like Ira Sullivan and Duffy Jackson come to sit in. The rock didn't hurt the jazz, and the jazz didn't hurt the rock. What is most important is that your son has fun. Let him jam to the Bob Crewe or whatever else he wants. Slowly introduce him to the jazz and see if he takes it, but don't force it.
Take your son's sax to a sax technician. You should be able to find one with a query on the Sax On The Web forum forum.saxontheweb.net/forum.php
and let him evaluate the intonation on the sax. If it is sax with terrible intonation, you might think about trading up, but even if you do, intonation is going to be a problem, your son has to learn how to play it in tune. It just comes with the territory.
Insights and incites by Notes
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Quote:
Take your son's sax to a sax technician. You should be able to find one with a query on the Sax On The Web forum forum.saxontheweb.net/forum.php
and let him evaluate the intonation on the sax. If it is sax with terrible intonation, you might think about trading up, but even if you do, intonation is going to be a problem, your son has to learn how to play it in tune. It just comes with the territory.
Insights and incites by Notes
That's very good advice. Even a technician who deals mostly in school instruments should be able to render an evaluation such that you know where you stand. And there's the possibility that the tech might just identify some rather simple and inexpensive problems that can be easily rectified, such as a few bad pads, key articulation adjustments, etc.
Don't sell this one short, I've seen many instances of people trading up to the brand new sax and not knowing that the one they traded in just needed a bit of maintenance work and may have been a better instrument to begin with, if not so new and shiny.
Of course, if Scott could identify the exact brand, model and vintage, that information is also rather critical as well.
--Mac
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Quote:
Quote:
Take your son's sax to a sax technician. You should be able to find one with a query on the Sax On The Web forum forum.saxontheweb.net/forum.php
and let him evaluate the intonation on the sax. If it is sax with terrible intonation, you might think about trading up, but even if you do, intonation is going to be a problem, your son has to learn how to play it in tune. It just comes with the territory.
Insights and incites by Notes
That's very good advice. Even a technician who deals mostly in school instruments should be able to render an evaluation such that you know where you stand. And there's the possibility that the tech might just identify some rather simple and inexpensive problems that can be easily rectified, such as a few bad pads, key articulation adjustments, etc.
Don't sell this one short, I've seen many instances of people trading up to the brand new sax and not knowing that the one they traded in just needed a bit of maintenance work and may have been a better instrument to begin with, if not so new and shiny.
Of course, if Scott could identify the exact brand, model and vintage, that information is also rather critical as well.
--Mac
I will have access to it this evening. The discussion about this particular instrument being beyond resolution is from his teacher. THis is his teacher: http://rexmatzkesax.com/?page_id=7
I'm not sure I'm allowed to have modifications made to the instrument. I'm generally dead stupid as it pertains to woodwinds. Guitars and keyboards, different story - but since I have no experience whatsoever, I'm at the mercy of whoever provides an opinion.
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One more thing I forgot to add, sometimes a mouthpiece can be a contributor. I have a few mouthpieces and I find that certain mouthpieces work better with different saxes. The mouthpiece that gives me intonation challenges on my Grassi works well on my Mac and vice versa. I don't know why this is so. Fortunatly, they also give me better tone on those saxes, because I would sacrifice challenging intonation for better tone.
Even if you do end up getting a new sax, be sure to have it evaluated by a good sax tech.
When I bought my Selmer Mark VI, Selmer Mark VII, and Grassi Prestige I tried three of each out with a tuner and picked the best of the three. In the case of the VII, the three had very close serial numbers. On my other sax purchases I didn't have that luxury.
My new MacSax has relatively good intonation (better than the others I've owned). I got it via internet order and it was the first sax I didn't try before I bought. However, I got a no questions asked return policy on the horn.
My first school rental sax was an old Conn (fireworks on the bell) which was not nearly the sax that Conn used to sell. It was flimsy, light, thin, and as a kid, I didn't know if the intonation was on or not. After it seemed that I was a natural, my parents took the money they had saved from all my previous cash Christmas/Birthday presents and I bought a used Selmer Modele 26 sax. That was a pretty nice horn. Not too long after that I got the brand new Mark VI which had excellent tone but like all saxes of that day, had intonation challenges. I did end up getting first sax in the all-state band each year that I was eligible. The section leader usually goes to an alto player by default, but it was given to this tenor player, so the working with the strobe-o-conn and the instructions from my band directors paid off.
When you get the rental horn home, note the brand, model number, and serial number. There are a lot of people on the sax on the web forum who know a great deal more than me about saxes and know the strengths and weaknesses of individual models and the serial number runs.
Notes
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Ah, I missed the fact that this horn is a School Rental instrument.
Nevermind.
--Mac
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I am a tenor player too. The advice above is all sound. A tenor sax of any kind is a compromise tuning wise, its a question of lipping notes into tune and that takes a trained lip or 'embrouchure' and a good ear. All this comes naturally with time.
I did not read through every post but did people mention that many of the modern student instruments play very well indeed, even the chinese ones from ebay etc. I have a King super 20 its a classic instrument and its a lot of trouble to maintain, the modern instruments have computerised engineering and that gives better relaibility. Old instruments can be tricky.
All it takes is one inadvertant knock on a pad and sometimes the whole instrument becomes tough or evn impossible to play, if pads are worn or damaged this too seriously handicaps the instrument, thats were a sax technician is so useful. If you can its worthwile getting it looked over by a tech. BTW a cheap mouthpiece can hinder too, esp the plastic ones.
Last edited by ZeroZero; 03/19/13 02:30 PM.
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Well, the teacher has tried many different mouthpieces, is a rather accomplished player in our area, and cuts quite a bit of slack for instruments for students. This one he is thoroughly disgusted with. I should know model number, serial, etc. by this evening.
I'm not against buying a Chinese made instrument, if quality is more reliable than what can be expected from vintage instruments. I've experienced this in guitar shopping. While it pains me, it is also a reality. Quick, everyone look at your mobile phone country of manufacture.
-Scott
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Since this is a rental instrument, how about asking them to change it, based on the judgement of the reputable teacher?
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The instrument is a Jupiter - model and s/n still unknown as it is locked up in the band room at school (son plays on 7th grade bball team.
Matt, good idea, I'll see if I can get Rex to write a letter stating the issues.
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Your teacher will tell you that the market is flooded with plastic mouthpieces which are really just made to make it true that a mouthpiece is 'included in the box'. They have a kind of brittle, ugly sound. Ebonite mouthpieces are more respectable and give a warmer tone. Metal mouthpieces are most often played these days. My advice is don't get hung up on mouthpieces until there is a modicum of embrouchure developed. The muscles need to develop in the lip and then there is a lifetime of brain wiring to get those nuances of vibrato etc.
I have a friend - Willie Garnett - a wonderful man in all departments generous kind and honest. He repairs horns in London, has done for forty or more years, looks after the top players, has had his own big band and a quintet, knows many of the greats. He is a true expert - not just someone with a certificate in something. He always tells me there is a lot of hype around horns and mouthpieces.
Assuming you cut out the real rubbish, so many horns blow well these days - if set up properly. BTW the way a horn can be checked is by using a cigarette paper - if it moves too easily under a closed pad then there is a problem. Another method is putting a light down the horn in a dark room. If light peeks through then the horn is leaking. A leaky horn will make a beginner (and pro) struggle hard. Pads: pads have a life, they are made of pigskin and get out of shape as the get moisture swelling them. Every few years of playing a horn needs repadding if played hard. Pad condition of a second had horn are frequently out, only an expert can really tell.
Back to mouthpieces - you can pay silly money, but I play a Otto Link New Yorker, which is I suppose a couple of hundred UK these days, this plays fine , I dont see the need ot pay £2000+.
Reeds, another factor anbd a very important one. A read has a life. Especially for beginners its a little harder to play when fresh, then gradually soften over the months, until discarded. Beginners play thinner reeds on the whole - size 2 ish. They do fx the tone. Stan Getz played a hard reed it was part of his tone - hard reeds sound softer, thin reeds sound brassier.
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Hey Guys.
I just had to say how fascinating I've found this thread. As a guitar/bass/keyboard person, my knowledge of the saxophone is strictly limited and I found these posts really interesting. It's also increased my already considerable respect for sax players!
Many thanks.
ROG.
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Ooh, ZeroZero, a Super 20 - is it a Silversonic? Made in Cleveland Ohio? I've never owned a Silversonic, but it is one classic horn I'd like to own for a while. I played a Super 20 alto with a silver neck/brass bell for a little while and that was a nice horn. I had a Mark VI for a long time and an H.Couf for a long time too. Actually, I preferred the Couf because it had better tone, better intonation, and the key work fit my hands better. Plus, every Selmer I've ever owned has played sharp causing me to keep the mouthpiece at the very end of the cork. The VI was a fine horn, but IMHO it's over-rated today because of it's collectible status and it's idolatry. Rockstar-not: The Jupiter has a reputation as an adequate student horn, but I've never played one. Even a good horn can have a bad one roll off the assembly line but those are not as common as they used to be. A good sax tech is still recommended. It might just be suffering from a fixable problem. Here is something you can do to train your son's ears. Have him tune the horn with an electronic tuner, then play long notes on a sequencer, have him play a long note along with it and use his lip and ears to match the tone. If he has trouble, use the tuner as a help, but only at first, as he needs to learn ear/lip coordination, not eye/lip coordination. If looking to buy a new horn, I'd recommend MacSax http://macsax.com/ or Baronne http://www.philbarone.com/ I own a MacSax and it is an excellent horn. IMHO About 95% as good as a top-of-the-line horn and at about half the price. Mike Crouch (MAC) used to work with Phil Barone. The saxes are made in Taiwan, but don't let that scare you. There are some very excellent horns coming out of Taiwan these days. For more recommendations and other people's opinion, again the Sax On The Web forum is a place to go. Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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Quote:
Hey Guys.
I just had to say how fascinating I've found this thread. As a guitar/bass/keyboard person, my knowledge of the saxophone is strictly limited and I found these posts really interesting. It's also increased my already considerable respect for sax players!
Many thanks.
ROG.
I play both guitar/bass and sax, although I'm much better on the sax due to decades more experience on it.
It's easier to read music on the sax, as you don't ever have to take your eyes off the music to look at the fingers, it is only one note at a time, and the fingerings of the notes are more logical.
It's easier to transpose on the guitar. Move up one fret and you are in a new key. The fingerings of the same scale or arpeggio in each different key is entirely different. So while on the guitar you can learn 5 different fingerings of the major (or any other) scale depending on the position on the fretboard, for each different scale on the sax you have to learn 12 different fingerings, one for each key.
Neither the guitar nor the sax is perfectly in tune with itself. However the guitar is closer to being in tune with itself than the sax, and it's easier to adjust (if you have a good guitar). The sax intonation varies more and is different from note to note. The Bb may be flat while the B might be sharp and the C right on. On the other hand, a person with a good ear and good sax can overcome the intonation challenges on the sax much more than the guitarist can. For example, if a particular not is flat, the sax can lip it down to be perfectly in tune. That isn't easy on the guitar - if you have a whammy and you can play as well as Jeff Beck you might be able to do that.
Of course there are plenty of other differences between the two, but these are the ones that aren't so obvious to people who don't play both.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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So, Notes - this model would be a good instrument to invest in? http://www.philbarone.com/store/saxophon...e-brass-classicThat's the least expensive of the MacSax and Barone models that I can find - and frankly not that much more than what I am finding used that are supposedly worthy of purchase. There's a store here in CO (about a 3 hour drive from my house) that specializes in new and used Saxes: http://saxalley.com/ and I simply can't see myself driving 3 hours to find a used instrument for $800, that needs a $200 pad job on it, if I can get a new instrument with new pads, etc. for under $1700. -Scott
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No Notes, it's not a silver sonic alas just a regular one - then of course then of course there are the Zephers, these were the 'student horns' from the King factory, but blow just as good as the super 20 IMO. I also have a a Jupiter tenor and it plays very well indeed, in the right hands its as good as many pro instruments.
The link you provided had me a little worried, it seems to be all about the laquer - the prices I mean. I have always not worried about laquer, on a secondhand instrument a relaquer dulls the tone and devalues the instrument. I see lots of Chinese instruments with various colours reds blues and greens even, its a bit gimmicky. Also the "vintage" that is not vintage, does not impress here. Still I have never played any of these instruments and that's the acid test.
I say go for a Jupiter
Now if I can take the topic slightly to the side, on guitars I got a beautiful 12 string and a six string from Edman instruments on Ebay the price of a meal for two.
Now what I want is an electric that sounds as good as a Les Paul for under £100 UK
Last edited by ZeroZero; 03/20/13 08:46 AM.
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http://www.globalsources.com/gsol/Genera...pare_table=truethis search will give you some idea of the prices really paid for these instruments, they are often found in local shops and are rebadged for a small fee. IMO many of them play fine.
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Last edited by ZeroZero; 03/20/13 08:55 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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