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#206621 - 06/16/13 09:29 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 10/25/08
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Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawrie


Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.

It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?




good point.
I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate.

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#206639 - 06/17/13 03:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)

likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.

we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.

so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands!

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#206640 - 06/17/13 03:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
Registered: 06/25/12
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pat Marr
Originally Posted By: Lawrie


Hi Pat,
I would argue that while this would seem to be correct, it is because of an artificial, imposed preference.

It is my OPINION that the recording companies have, to a very large extent, dictated the tastes of the buying public by simply not making available anything other than what they want to sell. E.G. where do commercial radio get their source material..?




good point.
I agree completely. Thanks for making that distinction, it makes the discussion more accurate.



I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (06/17/13 03:12 AM)

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#206641 - 06/17/13 06:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!

Hey John,
I'm not sure if you have a point or not...

On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds.

BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste...

As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them.

Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band...

Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too wink
_________________________
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You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#206642 - 06/17/13 07:13 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 11/06/08
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Loc: Homosassa , Florida
GDaddy Offline
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or perhaps..the ever-present solo pianist...especially if he's Bill Evans! i.e. "April in Paris"...a few posts back....
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#206646 - 06/17/13 10:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7630
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a formulaic approach to writing songs to target them at the marketplace if that is what you want to do. calling those songs "dumbed down" is elitist and unnecessary (sorry Bob!)

likewise there is nothing wrong with being a virtuoso creating music so complex that only you "get" it! calling those songs "dumbed up" ("smarted up"?) would be equally wrong.

we should all create whatever we want without feeling all superior or being made to feel inferior.

so, back to the original question, for me the act of creating music and performing it is mostly an emotional pursuit. if you can connect with folks (or just yourself if that is your goal) and make them smile or cry or feel something then IMHO you have succeeded whether you did it with 3 simple chords or you wore out the neck of your guitar with your amazing jazz hands!


I should probably stop "talking for others", explaining what they meant... but in this case I will at least say what *I* thought the person meant.

When people talk about "dumbed down" music, they aren't necessarily talking about ALL commercial music, because nearly everything we all like is exactly that.

*I* think the term is used to describe what happens when the music becomes a MUCH lower priority than the money.

I can't verify it, but I've heard of a famous experiment in which a chimpanzee was left in a room with art supplies. He found them amusing and would entertain himself for hours making intricate marks on the paper. So they decided to see what would happen if they positively reinforced his efforts with food. Once he realized there was a link between the scribbles and the food, he'd spend barely enough time to make a scribble before presenting it for food.

IMO, the same thing happens with people. You get different results when art is your passion and when money is your passion. But some people who are good businessmen are also good musicians, so its not true across the board.

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#206647 - 06/17/13 10:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
Registered: 10/25/08
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Pat Marr Offline
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Posts: 7630
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regarding the studios dictating what the public hears:

There are LOTS of bands whose music could appeal to a large enough audience to make money if their work was internationally distributed and promoted by the fat cats.

I've often suspected that the ones who DO get promoted are those who are willing to sign a really disadvantageous contract. Then the company milks them for the length of the contract, and dumps them if they try to negotiate a better contract

Hopefully the internet is making it possible for artists to promote themselves.


Edited by Pat Marr (06/17/13 10:16 AM)

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#206650 - 06/17/13 10:31 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
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"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".
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#206652 - 06/17/13 10:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: floyd jane]
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90 dB Offline
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Originally Posted By: floyd jane
"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".








Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! shocked shocked shocked
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#206658 - 06/17/13 12:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: 90 dB]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7630
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
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Originally Posted By: 90 dB
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".


Duck and cover! Duck and cover!!!!!! shocked shocked shocked


<ScoobyDoo>
   RUH-ROH...ROOKOUT BEROW!
</ScoobyDoo>


Edited by Pat Marr (06/17/13 12:10 PM)

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#206670 - 06/17/13 03:06 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Lawrie]
Registered: 06/25/12
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lawrie
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


I think it is far more likely that what they have always been doing is producing records, watching what the public responds to and then producing more of that until something new comes along. In that scenario is IS the public who is deciding what we get to listen to!

Hey John,
I'm not sure if you have a point or not...

On the one hand, in the very early days of commercial recording I would think the recording companies probably concentrated on those performers that were drawing crowds.

BUT, when the "talent scouts" started looking for groups that were cheap to record then they most certainly started dictating taste...

As a f'rinstance, I play in several groups. One is a pretty good Big Band. Many of our audiences include kids who rarely, if ever, get exposed to the music we play. They get blown away by our sound, which is in many cases completely foreign to them.

Big Bands cost to record and to hire - a quartet is wa-ay cheaper than a 17+ piece big band...

Which leads me to my pet peeve: A rhythm section does not a band make - for ME, ya gotta have a front line too wink


Of course I had a point! laugh Let's see if I can state it real simple for ya...

1) Record companies produce music.
2) People buy the music (or don't)
3) Record companies rinse & repeat based on #2

There is of course no doubt that record companies (like all big business) wanna make the most money possible so they will milk an artist or genre as long as we buy it. But as soon as we stop buying it they move on to the next one. But they do not have a crystal ball or inherent knowledge of what will sell in advance. Nor do they have special mind powers to control what we buy! It is all about watching the trends and filling those needs. Of course it certainly helps them when much of the consuming public are lazy and willing to buy whatever is on the end cap! smile

And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.

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#206672 - 06/17/13 03:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: floyd jane]
Registered: 06/25/12
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Posts: 2347
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
"Commercial" is not a dirty word.

Commercial does not equal BAD. I'm not saying that there is not bad commercial music - of course there is, there is plenty of it. But to dismiss it all is certainly narrow-minded by definition.

There is QUALITY commercial music. And to produce it requires a set of skills that not every musician has.

So, one might actually say that musicians/songwriters who do not produce "commercial" music are actually "lacking some skills".


I agree 100% Floyd! It has always bugged me when friends say this artist of that artist "sold out" for commercial success as if there was some imaginary land of righteous music production and to try another genre or target the pop charts was somehow less noble! I always call bulls%#t. So Clapton tried some reggae/pop and produced a nice little hit song. And Fleetwood Mac changed their lineup, abandoned their roots and produced a couple of chart-busting albums. Good for them I say!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (06/17/13 06:24 PM)

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#206676 - 06/17/13 04:20 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: ROG]
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pghboemike Offline
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my favorite version of this song
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#206707 - 06/18/13 12:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Hi John,
I guess I'm falling into the same trap as most others do in trying to oversimplify things - there is no one simple explanation for the situation.

Nevertheless:
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

And with all due respect I personally don't believe the lack of popularity of Big Band music is the fault of the record companies! I think tastes have changed over the years.

tastes HAVE changed - and I happen to believe more than a little of the change has been driven by the big labels. YMMV wink

I do think it's telling that younger people who hear us for the first time generally enjoy the genre and start coming back for more.
_________________________
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#206715 - 06/18/13 02:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: Pat Marr]
Registered: 06/25/12
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JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Hi Lawrie,

Yeah, me too! smile I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!!

It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh

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#206721 - 06/18/13 03:20 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
<snip>
Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


Ain't that the truth! cry wink
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#206748 - 06/18/13 10:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
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Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


I was in a bigband, local, we played an outdoor parks concert near the beach, there was this large crowd of young people dressed like punk rockers there, by the end of our set they were partying to the music something wild.

Looked out there during one of the encore numbers and saw this large group of kids who were pogo dancing and some were even slam dancing to -- "In the Mood"

Stick together guys, we can all sneak out the back way...


--Mac
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#206750 - 06/18/13 10:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: from YOUR point of view, is music an intellectual or emotional pursuit? [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7630
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7630
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Hi Lawrie,

Yeah, me too! smile I'm always hoping for one single theory of music and music business to unite them all!!

the closest thing I've found to a "unified theory" of music is Peter Gannon's tag line...

Quote:
It is really nice to hear that young folks come to hear you and enjoy the music. Of course, if they are anything like the young folks in the USA, regardless of the genre, they don't seem to be willing to actually pay for any of it these days! laugh


<broken record>

which is part of thereason why I'm specifically gearing up to play music for baby boomers. It isn't just recorded music the young 'uns won't pay for. They are conspicuously absent from most of the live music venues I've attended recently. My son says its because people his age would rather stay home and stream netflix.

Boomers, on the other hand, not only pay for their recorded music, they also go out to hear it. (at least, that's been my observation)

</broken record>

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PG Music News
Notation Enhancements in Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows!

There are Notation Enhancements in the NEW Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows! These include:
•A new button in the Print Options dialog which lets you quickly print a "chords only" fake sheet. You can also access this from the right-click menu on the chord sheet.
•A new track type (Drums) is now available for The Melody and Soloist tracks.
•Clicking close to a stave line will put a note on the stave line instead of between stave lines. (Previously, you had to click extremely close to a stave line to insert a note on The line.)
•Double-clicking on the Standard mode Notation window (or on the time line in Editable or Staff Roll mode) plays the song from the current time location. Previously, it played the song from the beginning of the current bar.
•Holding down the [Ctrl] key and pressing the zoom in/out buttons results in finest possible incremental adjustment in size.
•In The Notation Windows Options dialog, The clefs split point asterisk indicates that C5* is middle C.
•Pressing The space bar plays the song from the current time location, not the current bar.
•The clefs split point can be set by the spin controls.
•The right-click menu in the Editable or Staff Roll mode Notation window has an option to change the current beat resolution. Previously, the only way to do this was to right-click on the time line.
•There's a keystroke entry notation mode - the 'N' mode, which lets you enter a melody entirely using keystrokes. The keystrokes are N to enter a note, up/down cursor to change its pitch, and left/right cursor to move the time line.
•You can now edit any track in the Event List Editor. When The dialog opens, it will show you the MIDI data in the current Notation track.
•You can quickly enter forced accidentals from the right-click menu.

We talk about these new features within our Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content! video:
25:45 - New Features: Easy Entering of Notation with the 'N' Key
36:48 - Change Beat Resolution From the Right-Click Menu
37:15 - Easier Entry of Notes on Lines
37:42 - Asterisk to Indicate Middle C on & Spin Controls
37:53 - Force Accidental from the Right-Click Menu
38:01 - Edit Any Track in the Event List
38:09 - Keystroke Note Entry Mode 'N' for Faster Note Entry
38:28 - Print Chords Only Fake Sheet
38:32 - More Control of Notation Size

Rather read about it?
-Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® Upgrade Manual
-New Feature Summary - Notation Enhancements

The New Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows SongPicker!

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-Many filters are available. You can filter the list by subfolders, genre, feel, time signature, style, songs with melody, soloist, lyrics, key signature, tempo range, and the year of file dates.
-You can search songs that have similar chord progressions and/or melody fragments.
-Hotkey! ss+enter opens the SongPicker, ss2+enter opens the Recently Played Songs, etc.

Learn more about the updates with our New Features Video - we've made it easy to find the section you'll need:
2:55 - New Feature: Redesigned SongPicker
21:58 - New Features: SongPicker Enhancements
41:10 - Now Over 10,600 Titles in SongPicker

You can also read all about the new SongPicker within our Online Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows® Upgrade Manual.

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Band-in-a-Box® 2019 Online and PDF Manuals Available!

Visit our Online Manuals support page for access to the latest Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows program manuals!

Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows User's Guide: Online Manual | PDF Download
Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows Upgrade Manual: Online Manual | PDF Download

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Our "Band-in-a-Box® 2019 for Windows®! New Features, RealTracks, and other content!" video is now ready! Get to know all about the newest features in Band-in-a-Box® 2019: Click here to watch...

We have listed a table of contents for this video, you'll see it within the YouTube video description, or by visiting this forum post.

RealBand 2019 - A New Look!

Have you opened up your RealBand 2019 yet? You may notice that we've given it a fresh new look! In fact, there are now 3 different looks to RealBand.

See for yourself! Within the program, visit Options | Icon Set and choose from: Classic, Modern 1, or Modern 2.

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