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Mac's comment about the unamplified sound of an electric guitar triggered a memory.
When I got my Roland VG-88 "V-Guitar" it was necessary to install the GK-3 divided pickup on my solid body electric. Calibrating this pickup requires adjustments so fine that they tell you that the backing on the double-stick tape is 0.1 mm in thickness and to take that into account when making measurements. My micrometer is only good to 0.005" and was barely adequate for the job.
My guitar is an Ibanez Roadstar II from the late 80s. I bought it as a cheap alternative to a Strat, but it never sounded all that good in that respect, and I've never had the dough or the will to replace it; it just 'played the notes'. In the process of setting up the synth it was necessary to do a proper setup on the action--string height, length, whammy--everything.
I THOUGHT I had done this in the past, but as I worked and listened the Strat sound that I had missed for 20 years began to reveal itself while the guitar was on the bench--without amplification. By the time I was through, my $200 used copy had the classic Strat honk when played through my little Fender amp. It's the best it has ever sounded or played. Other musicians have commented on it, too. (And I'm embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out.)
The importance of having your guitar set up properly cannot be overemphasized.
R.
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It sure sounds like a phase shifter, but I'm thinking he's going through an effects box I know Roland makes a modeling effects box for acoustic guitar - there may be some stomp boxes that could produce that effect - there are so many out there? Could also be like a computer - Guitar Rig or one of those. Sounds like the treble is pulled down to get the nylon sound (which could also be part of the effect) and you can hear him damping the strings pretty hard with the palm of his hand, probably to keep the effects from being too pronounced as it sounds like he has a lot of the effect going on and it seems to feedback and battle with the rhythm of his picking at times.
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I know what you guys mean. It goes on, and on. Now I don't know whether or not to get a different acoustic, before I start all this, or not. I could sink money into my Fender or Yamaha, now that I have some answers, or just buy a better guitar, and then use all this knowledge? That would open up a brand new thread, that would go on forever, if I dared ask what kind of guitar to get. Ha Ha. . . not going there. I did get a nice tax return, I could buy a Martin, but do I really need to. I'm the kind of guy that would rather take a road worn medium quality guitar, and give it what it needs with after market TLC to end up with something that I like. I have taken many ugly electrics, and added a Floyd Rose and Grovers, and active pick ups. . . Repainted them, and really felt a sense of pride with the sound. I'll never forget the time I bought the electric Eddie Van Halen plays, with the wierd head piece that comes to a point? What a piece of C R # $. (no offense to anyone who might own one).
Well, the Quest goes on. This year I'm gonna figure out everything that has been nagging me.
Gene
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Gene-I listen to many guitar players. The things that I have learned are-
Use a good PA-gives a nice natural stereo sound-if you can't do that a stereo pedal.
A chorus pedal/phase shift/reverb/
With these simple things you should be able to get the sound you are looking for.
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
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Luvs3rds,
The sound that is in the song snippet you posted could have come from a well under $500 guitar. If that is the sound you are looking for, please do not spend the money on an expensive acoustic at this point in time.
It sounds like you have two different acoustic guitars, a Fender and a Yamaha.
I think that the sound you posted is coming from likely a removable soundhole pickup.
Take your two guitars to a local shop where they sell removable soundhole pickups. Make sure the guitars are setup by a well-known luthier in the area first. Then ssk to try the pickups aon your two guitars, into a signal chain that first EQ's the signal, then compresses the signal, then passes it through a touch of chorus and then light reverb.
Your two acoustics will take on some magic you probably haven't heard before.
Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted. There is no character of an acoustic guitar there to tell what it might be. Can't tell whether it's a dreadnaught, grand concert, etc. It could even be an electric guitar through one of those acoustic guitar simulator circuits because it sounds so 'unnatural' as an acoustic guitar.
Now, if you do start playing a higher end acoustic guitar, you WILL hear a difference compared to a sub-$500 guitar, all other things being equal (new strings, both guitars setup properly, etc.) with it's acoustic, unplugged sound. But the sound you will hear will bear no similarity to the sound in the song you posted. You may fall in love with the real sound of a delightful acoustic guitar. That is a different matter altogether, but it will not sound like the sound that you posted.
I believe we are in a golden age of well-crafted beautiful sounding acoustic guitars. I'm not saying that this is as good as it gets, but there are so many different brands out there in the $500-$1500 range that have simply killer sounding acoustics, each with their own beauty and purpose, that it is very difficult to choose.
I'm partial to the Larrivee brand for many reasons - not the least of which was getting a personal tour of their Oxnard, CA factory from Jean Larrivee himself back 5 or 6 years ago. I've seen how those guitars are made first hand.
But there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% than an similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/06/09 06:22 AM.
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Quote:
Luvs3rds, Based on the sound posted, I have no idea what kind of guitar that the player had that you posted.
I went to Dale's site. In every picture he is holding an Ovation acoustic steel string without electronics, so he is either micing it or using a soundhole pickup.
Quote:
. . . there are many others out there. Beware of Martin and Taylor. You will pay a premium for those names; perhaps 15-25% [more] than a similarly equipped Larrivee or Seagull, or (fill in the blank). They have well-earned name recognition that commands a price. I love both Martins and Taylors, for different reasons, but I think they are overpriced these days.
-Scott
Alvarez-Yairi is essentially a custom-shop Alvarez and still represents a tremendous bargain. I bought mine from Dean Markley himself when he had a small shop in Santa Clara, CA, saying that I wanted the guitar that was going to last me the rest of my life. He put it in my hands in 1972 and I still have it.
Takamines are still a tremendous value and use that palathetic pickup they first put into the mass production marketplace and which, if you aren't installing a Baggs, is the way to go. (I traded an acoustic Takamine 12-string for my first PC and am still wondering about that deal. I got my money's worth, but that thing played perfectly right off the music-shop peg . . .) There are many great values in the $500-$1000 range, but again, if yours are properly set u they may be all you need, at least for playing live.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
For me I find after a while I get tired of those effects. I'm leaning towards a nice warm acoustic sound which comes from a great guitar.
AMEN, Ed!
--Mac
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Ryszard,
Very cool story about your Yairi. Regarding Ovations, it's kind of hard to tell when they are 'lectrified' from photos because they did a decent job hiding the knobs and jack. For example, on my shallow bowl Applause (Kind of like Ovation's "Squier"), the volume and tone control knobs rested in the waist between the upper and lower bouts, and the jack was not a typical end-pin jack. It came off the back of the bowl, kind of between the lower bout and the end pin. Ovations and Applause guitars kind of tip up towards your face when you wear them (at least on me), so the cord that would be plugged in points almost directly toward the floor.
Anyway, I ruined that guitar and it was providential - it lead me to Larrivee in the end and also to wider necks in general. My Applause had a neck that was probably modeled after a Strat.
Luvs3rds - best wishes. Get those Fender and Yamahas setup by a decent luthier first.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/06/09 09:12 PM.
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I think I will. I didn't even consider any of that stuff. I always just replaced strings, and thought all was good. I'm learning that guitars "off the shelf" can be enhanced considerably.
Gene
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I play a 1981 Ovation Baladeer that, to me, sounds fantastic. Projects very loud and clear, with surprisingly good bass tones. ( never known for there low end) For really mellow sound with great...I mean great lows....I play a 1992 Guild. Action's not nearly as good as the Ovation, but it sounds great for rhythm.
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I don't guitar at all.
I don't get makin' an accoustic guitar electric, I'm maybe too old.
Accoustic guitar in a small venue is environ-mentally friendly. Takes no coal to make it run.
The whole concept sounds wierd to me. Kinda like asking someone to take a 12 foot grand and make it electric.
When I was a kid my dad did the sound for the church who had the service taped and played back the next week on the radio. He put one big silver mike under the piano and another under the tilted up lid. 10 mics, a mixing board and tape drives.
Still remember my 2 brothers and i sitting beside my Mom, and Dad was up in the 'control' room and about 2 minutes before church started he turned on the system only to pick up the local rock and roll station playing Buddy Holly. He turned it down and ran down and pulled mics until the radio went away. Brought out a different cord for the mic and never heard that radio again.
I can still get the local radio on my keyboard if I hook it up just so. Drives me nuts, but I've learned to use the headphone jack not the Left line out, that's the radio reciever!
All this probably goes back to the hippy chick with the 12 string she played in the park while we sang blowin in the wind....Mom wanted to buy her a bra LOL. I liked that summer a lot. See some of do remember a bit of the '60's! Just Joe Cocker can't be one of them.....
John Conley
Musica est vita
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If the guitar had a 12 foot sounding board like your rather large Grand Piano, it likely wouldn't need amplification either...
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Ya, 1965, Dylan ruined guitar playing.
Early Everly Bros, Peter Paul and Mary, Lightfoot, et al. Then we got overamped, screaching.
I understand that you can't do acoustic in front of 20,000 people in central park without a mic but holy heck I hated it when Hendrix turned the American Anthem into a whacked out drug infested..never mind, you guitar players all probably liked that.
I took a video recorder to a cover band I was playing in and listened to each song, made some suggestions and just dropped out. As hard as I tried the bass guitar guy just cranked and the lead guitar guy cranked and then the other and back and forth and all you could hear was noise.
Something to be said for hearing the frets and a real accoustic guitar played by someone who has the thing down.
And even the big ol' grand can be muted..about 4 ways.
My upright has 4 inches of foam behind it between the piano and the wall for a reason.
I have run into venues where their acoustic piano won't play the hall due to the configuration. And I drag out the amps and the Roland, but it's still too loud at the front and not enough at the back and the audience has 1/2 the people with hearing aids running out the back door. The other half can't hear properly.
I guess that's part of playing in the 60's and being old. Means everyone in the room is 60 to 70. And like me awake at 4 am 'cause it's gonna storm and my knees ache.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I appreciate all the informative responses from all of you. I found the original of Tree Top flier by Stills, that is closer to the sound I can not find. I don't expect everyone to reiterate everything that was said above. I did read them all. The sound is sort of a boing, rounded sound. Sounds like compression maybe to take the brashness out of the treble of the strings. Listen where he solos at about 2:00 minutes. It is very clear there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duAn9ZBgD6k&feature=relatedGene
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Luvs3rds,
That is a little more of a mic'ed guitar sound. In fact, it's possible that it is mostly mic'ed and only a little bit of a direct from piezo-under saddle transducer. One thing is sure, there is either a delay'ed doubled track, or chorus applied to the sound. There is some compression as you expected.
Again, I think you can probably accomplish a sound similar to this with either one of your existing acoustic guitars because the sound is so heavily processed - there is very little character of the acoustic guitar's 'acoustic-ness' in the sound.
Do you have any pickups in either one of your guitars? Note the difference between this sound and the first post you made. With this one, there is more string squeak that sounds like it came through the air rather than through the strings. That's coming from a mic most likely. The 'snappy/plasticky' sound sounds more like it's coming from an under saddle transducer pickup. I'm guessing this was even a thin-body acoustic/electric type of guitar because the low end is all strings and no body resonance of the guitar. Or the recording engineer had the mic up by the fretting hand and rolled off the lows.
-Scott
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That's a studio cut.
Sounds like a large diaphragm condenser mic (likely more'n one) in a very well acoustically prepared room. Thru a super mic preamp. Onto analog tape.
And that is almost certainly Stills' famous D-45 at work.
And some high end effects gear in rack...
--Mac
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Rockstar and Mac;
Ok. Thank you for your opinions. My Yammy has two pickups, one under the bridge, and a round one I put in front of the bridge underneath. My Fender has nothing. I think I will run the Fender thru the shop to set it up by a luthier, and order a Baggs for it. Then I can try various hook ups as mentioned above, and see what comes of it.
Thank you to everyone who took the time to respond. I read each and every one, more than once. You guys are truly a wealth of information.
Gene
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Quote:
Stills:
"There are guitars where because of the chording technique and the attack on the G string, when you play a D chord, it'll get out of tune. So I use a Gretsch with the biggest strings, a wound third string. Solves the whole problem. Once they start putting pickups on my 50-year old guitars, rather than using the damn microphone, I don't care if it's the Forum or Yankee Stadium, once they start doing that, I might as well play on the electric guitar, where I know what's going to happen. The difference in sound is not that great. They put an eight-ounce piece of plastic in the sound-hole of my 58-year old Martin D-45 - which is worth about $15,000.-$20,000. - to make is sound good in the hall. And I said, "Hang on. Wait just one minute here. You've got this all wrong. Your job is to reproduce that sound in the hall, the sound of that instrument." I paid $6000. dollars for a guitar that was not really worth it, but they only made 125 before World War II. I have two of the best that they made. It's as simple as that. The sound man's job is not to mess with that. Find a little contact pickup if you want, but use it in conjunction with the microphone. In the studio, I use a Neumann 87 or a Telefunken, or an AKG, or a 546, or all four to reproduce the sound of this particular guitar. There are some other devices used the way I set my limiters. What kind of limiters I use, what kind of equalization, how much Poltec and how much of that, those are my main trade secrets. Where the trick is, which all the engineers and producers lose sight of, is that you have to reproduce a guitar."
" I use Fender Rock ‘n’ Rolls, light gauge or extra-light gauge and bronze Earthworks for my acoustics I have one set of pre-CBS Fender flatwounds for my basses. I use “silk and steels,” and Savarez for my Spanish guitar. When I do use a flat pick, I usually use a thin one and my fingers to play bass. Rotosound bass strings aren’t bad. I keep bass strings on for a year, if not longer, and that’s about all."
DTuna
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Well, If I'm Steven Stills, and I'm paying thousands of dollars for acoustic guitar, no matter what brand, I would be firing the recording engineer who wrecked the sound of those guitars with the processing. Everything that he rants about using pickups rather than mics in D. Tuna's post is what sounds wonky with his guitar in the youtube video. Here's live concert footage with an end-pin jack in place and it's nearly the same exact sound. Missing some mic'ed string squeak is about the only difference to the previous YouTube. Maybe there's one of those little condenser's inside, but it sounds mostly pickup to me. From the looks of the haircuts, I'm guessing this pre-dates internal condenser mics in general. It's all that farty and 'acky' snap sound and doubled or chorused. I'd lay money that endpin jack has a Fishman style UST on the business end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUmIO_MG5IU&feature=relatedIt just doesn't sound like the way an acoustic guitar should to me. I would love to hear that Martin naturally, rather than through a pickup. No doubt he's a good player, but the beauty of the ancient slothead Martin is completely and totally gone in both of these clips. Great playing, but it likely wouldn't sound any different on a sub $500 Yamaha with Stephen at the helm given the same exact signal chain. To hear a more acoustic sound, the KEL microphones page has some decent sound clips. Here's one: http://www.kelaudio.com/acoustic_full_mix.mp3Those guitars sound much more expensive to me than the Stills examples. You can almost hear the 'wood' in the sound. Can almost guarantee that they aren't multi-thousand dollar collector pieces either. Here's another one in a style that isn't terribly different than the Stills song: http://www.kelaudio.com/hm1xyacoustic1.mp3Gene - you can get very close to the Stills sound, playing ability aside, with the I-beam you plan to buy. In fact, you can get a better sound than that from it. If you are really looking for the electrified sound that these have - the signal chain of Compression/EQ, or EQ/Compression then a doubler either from a very short delay or a chorus will serve you well. You should also be able to get it with the Yamaha. I don't know what kind of pickup is 'the round one in front of the bridge'. Key settings will be the EQ you choose, the level of compression you choose and the delay setting to get the doubled 'fat' sound. Here's a better guitar than the yamaha / fenders, but certainly not in the Still's league - with a K+K bridge-plate transducer into a K+K preamp, not mic'ed whatsoever. With the LR Baggs, you'll get something pretty similar. With this recording, the only thing that isn't quite 'natural' is the little-bit-too-loud bass response you hear sometimes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZbWWgLUjCY The video was made by one of the regular guys over at the Larrivee forums. To Still's point in his rant, I've seen large diaphragm condensers used in live performance to get a real acoustic sound. Last year when Allison Krauss and Union Station played in Detroit, they used one for some of the songs. You'll seem 'em on Austin City Limits quite often with players that are sitting and not alot of guitar amps and drums around to bleed in to the sides of the polar pattern. -Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 05/12/09 10:45 PM.
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The first vid posted is definitely NOT Steve's prewar D-45.
Maybe a new Martin with factory p/u from the sound (and look) of it.
--Mac
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