PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic The Music Business Today is getting signed dead or not?

That's good advice, Bob.

--Max

Not sure where you call home but move to Nashville at once! I lived there for 10 years and while the music business is as tough or tougher there than anywhere else it is also one of the most friendliest places I have ever lived and worked.

Without being pushy or a pain in the bottom you can get to know who's who in the industry in a very short time. I must confess it was shorter for me because I had free whiskey and wine as I worked for a major spirits producer.

After you are there go to open mic nights and play your music to anyone who will listen to it. I know from experience that many big time acts and producers not only attend these venues but even try out new material of their own.

You will find many people who have contacts and being the friendly town it is it won't be long before you meet some pretty influential people. Now I repeat do not be pushy and try to overpower your contacts as you will be seen as someone only looking out for yourself and you will be dropped like a hot horseshoe!

I guess the real question can only be answered by you (or anyone else with the same dream) and that is . . . how much are you willing to sacrifice to gain the stardom you seek? If the answer contains one "but or maybe" the only other way is to get "real" lucky.

Just my 2 cents, still wishing you the best.

Later,

Yep.

Danny, I just looked up the guy that played B.B. King's club the night we were there, and it was a guy by the name of Grant Garland. Ever heard him play?

http://www.grantgarlandmusic.com/grant-garland-music.html

He did mostly covers, but take a listen to the couple of snippets there, and you can get an idea of what kind of band was with him that night - they were smokin' Old geezer-ish guy on B3 and I was way too close to the Leslie cabinet, but he had fun!

Bob Pigeon - take a look at that guy's website. Classy. Unsigned. He's a killer guitar player and singer and band leader. Unsigned. Did I mention he's unsigned?

Even some of the biggest bands in Christian music aren't 'signed'. Jars of Clay and Switchfoot are fully independent entities right now. Both had been on big labels, and chose to go it on their own.

Edit - Looks like Switchfoot is on Atlantic now. At one time they were on Sony when Sony pulled that shenanigan of putting a root-kit on their CDs - Switchfoot was publicly upset about it and I don't know that they stayed on for another album. I believe the next one they did was fully independent.

Population of Nashville: 609,000.

Population of Los Angeles: 3.85 million.

And at least two thirds of them are musicians. Ok, ok, only half.

I live in a regular old condo complex in Redondo Beach about 20 miles south of Hollywood. My upstairs neighbor is an Elvis impersonator and the guy across the way is a bluegrass picker who works at Disneyland and has two albums. The guy across the pool from me is from NY, killer singer and guitarist who came here because he wasn't making it in NY. Bad move. I know there's more players right here around me because I hear them from time to time. I swear EVERYBODY and his dogs uncle is a player/singer/songwriter/actress/model. EVERYBODY.

Think it's tough in Nashville, try it out here. Apparently folks are friendly there, here it's the classic Hollywood hustle.

"You're the best baby, don't worry, we'll call you and set something up".

"When?"

"Soon"

"How soon?"

"Real soon."

I'm still waiting for that $5,000 Christmas gig in Malibu that was promised over ten years ago.

Bob

"I swear EVERYBODY and his dogs uncle is a player/singer/songwriter/actress/model. EVERYBODY."



Don't forget your mailman who carries his screenplay with him everywhere!

No I never heard of this cat, but to your point just another hell of an entertainer playing in the shadows. Thanks for the link.

In fact your post and link brought back a memory of a band that the who's who in Nashville music would hire for many of their functions. The band was/is still called "Sons of the Beach".

HERE is a clip of them today still playing in the shadows. I must admit a lot more grey hair and tonnage added to the act since I saw them back in the 80's. :>

My point to trapper is that these guys, including Grant who played BB King's club, had the talent and no doubt the connections as they were known and booked by the movers and shakers in the industry. So who knows why they are not a household name today. Many unknowns in the search for fame and fortune.

I remember what the old band leader Phil Harris told my cousin while he was playing trumpet in Pete Fountain's band at Pete's bar in New Orleans . . . he said he believes in his heart that until that Angel taps you on your shoulder and says hey baby now it is your turn nothing else matters.

Edited portion: As I look at that clip I see they might have lost their live horn section and drummer . . . BIAB?

Also if anyone does not understand singing from the diaphragm check out Steve's belly as he sings . . . this is priceless!

Later,

Great vid, Danny. This is a standard type of gig that I've done a couple dozen of in the last several years. What's happening is the bass, drums and some harmony vocals are prerecorded and the keys player is handling most of the horns and other parts. I can see he's exactly like me, he doesn't want everything prerecorded he wants to be busy on stage so he recorded what he feels is necessary and is playing the rest live. I could plug right in with Steve no problem at all I've done all that stuff for years. I've been doing the exact same thing except with my Korg Pa1XPro arranger keyboard and some midi files. It's the old model that doesn't have audio playback capability otherwise I would use some Biab RT's with it but it's midi sounds are very good anyway.

Note how they're running the show exactly like a DJ would. No breaks, no noodling between songs, none of that. They're going from one to the other. Perfect. It is funny seeing Steve with the big belly working his diaphragm but I work with a 300 pound sax player and it's the same thing with him. This is SOP for parties out here and it also shows how a couple of good live players can compete with a DJ.

The bad news is, no full band to interact with you're stuck with the recorded arrangement. Oh well...They're probably making $400-500 for this gig and they didn't want to split that with the bass, drums and guitar.

As for how to get signed, how to further your career in the music biz, I got nothin. It's all been said a million times over, consider it on the same level as winning the Lotto and that's pretty much it. The real sad problem is you're either playing gigs like these a few times a month or you're a superstar making millions. There's not much in the middle any more.

Bob

As depressing as it might be to hear I think Bob has made the best point with his Lotto analogy. There are VERY FEW signed artists and even fewer who are signed and making it big. Yet there are millions of folks out there vying for these few spots. And probably hundreds of thousands are actually damn good, well connected, living near the epicenter, etc. So do the music because you love it and buy a Lotto ticket from time to time (but don't bet your retirement on either!)

I know that my chances of winning the lottery are much better than being signed. I do love the music and have ever since I started singing at the tender age of 10. My mother was opera trained and she taught me how to sing properly throughout my life so I know a lot of the little tips and tricks, but I do love the music that is why I have created over 400 songs.

There are very few people who have heard them all, and the ones who have heard them tell me that I should be doing this as a living. So, what I have decided to do instead of growing any older and waiting to get signed is this, I am going to slowly release my song's through outlets on the internet. I am going to save some promotional money say a couple of thousand over the next couple of months and use the internet as a tool myself. I will strip the vocals and guitar out of the recording masters that I am trying to promote and get a local following.

I am not going to move though because I still have family here, especially one that needs my help so I am not going to leave right now, someday in the future maybe possible but not right now. I have carefully read all of the posters comments and this is the conclusion that I have come to. It is not very likely that I will get signed professionally so I'll do it myself. One of my friends signed with "Tate Music" but, he had to pay $1,900.00 up front.

That money was just for them using their equipment to re-record his CD, and they would release it on their website and release it on I Tunes. The name of his band is Ravish if you type in ravishrocks you will find it in Google. But, now I think I see the light about getting signed without ever having to leave home. I am kind of disappointed, but, I am glad that you have all shared your experience with this aspect of the business with me.

You can still be successful without being signed.

We started a band, got a small following (few hundred 'regulars'), did scheduled 'shows' a couple times a year, and sold a few thousand of our CD's and a couple hundred T-Shirts at the shows.

Turned out to be quite an eye opener for me; you can make money and get known locally without being 'signed'. Some people think that this is even cooler than getting signed. I happen to be one of them. I'm not sure I'd like the demands of being 'signed' .. I like enjoying what I do.

Barry and I (a friend and musician I've worked with for over 30 years) have decided our next project is to compile everything we've done together since the 70's and see if we can sell some of it online. We have many unreleased tunes in our past. People keep asking if we're going to do any more shows... I'm not up to doing shows anymore, but if I can make a few bucks reworking some tunes, and maybe adding to them, I'm in.
Getting old stinks. When I started noticing good days and bad days I realized my gigging days were done.

I wish a few 'signed' bands would have come to the same conclusion before going on tour.

This is probably what I will do along with selling my stuff on the Internet. I don't know how much of a following I can build around here though! The Music in this part of the country is pretty much all the Karaoke singers where I am at. The way that I want to do it is kind of Karaoke, but not really Karaoke.

I will use the master tracks with the voice and the guitar stripped out so I can still perform. I don't live in a real big place, but maybe that will be a first where I am at. I will be playing an actual instrument when singing. No one around here does that so maybe it will go over good.

I am not the greatest at guitar, but I can play what I have created though. That's all it takes. So, anyhow to everyone that has posted thank you for taking the time to do that. If you all have more information about getting signed and taking the rout that I have decided to take I would still be interested in hearing. Lets keep this thread going.

I dunno how old you are, but if you have the time and energy, get out and get known. If somebody shows an interest don't be modest, or pompous; get their contact info.

If someone enjoyed your stuff make sure you can invite them next time around. I have some funny stories about getting known locally. It can be fun and profitable without ever getting 'signed'.

One of the things that prompted me along this path was what I learned in Chicago. I played in places where other (then unknown) bands played the same night, or the next weekend, etc. and then went on to make it.
Smashing Pumpkins, The Cure ... I played one night at a club and Allen Holdsworth played there the next night. I heard later (may be rumor) that he actually had to sell some things off to afford the costs of recording the album before going on tour (but he sold a bunch of stuff like T-Shirts and albums at that show and probably every other one on the tour). So I assume he made money.
If names like that struggle to make it and get 'signed', I'm fine with staying local..

sounds like you have a pretty good plan. one thing I still plan to check out is Taxi.com (I think I mentioned them in a previous post.) they charge a yearly fee of something like $300 and then they regularly publish a list of opportunities. Some of these are for record companies looking for new talent and some are for artists looking for new songs and some are for TV/Movies needing music for their productions, etc. you can submit your songs for $5 and they will review and give you feedback (most submissions get critique but not all) on your song. if Taxi thinks it is good enough they will forward it to the folks from the listing and then those folks will decide whether to contact you with an offer.

I visit their forums from time to time to read success stories and it is pretty encouraging. most of the folks there who get deals are not exactly getting rich but at least some of them are selling their music. you should consider this.

From what I have heard, you have to be able to supply "radio-ready" (broadcast quality) productions in order to have a shot at a taxi listing. OK sounding stuff is not good enough. There are a few here that can do it, but most of us are more in the OK camp (and there is nothing wrong with that).

yeah, I agree but nowadays you're pretty much gonna need something close to broadcast quality to get anyone to listen to your stuff so that is a hurdle you need to get over if you're gonna have any chance of selling music.

I am in the process of purchasing a 24 track Digital Studio from another friend of mine. I am making payments on it. It has everything that you could ever need. So, if I get this I can get everything sounding to professional as the next guys.

By the way I am 47 years of age. rharv asked me this in a previous post. I am sort of semi retired so I got a lot of time. But, anyhow, back to the 24 track studio I think I can do wonders with it. So, maybe I will submit to taxi just to see what happens, plus I will play music on the side locally. Thanks again.

Trapster,

I'm glad to see you've started using paragraph breaks in your posts. It makes them much easier to read, and therefore possible that more people will read them.

You seem to have a good estimation of your musical abilities. Remember, though, that in order to reach your goals you need to wear many hats and be passably competent with each: Composer/writer, performer, booking agent, engineer, producer, marketeer, etc. It's a daunting task for the most experienced of us. (Okay, I'm speaking for myself.)

Barney Kessel, the great jazz guitarist, once classed musicians as beginners and experts. An expert is someone who knows all there is to know and can't be told anything. So you'll know, BK considered himself a beginner--someone open to new ideas from any source. You show great willingness to learn, which may be your greatest strength.

Good luck, keep asking questions, and have fun!

Richard

Trapper.....

I'm late to this convo.... but here's my take on things I have seen mentioned.

At 47 you can forget a major label contract since you're a good 27 years past their preferred maximum age for a new artist. All is not lost however.

I saw the posts saying you could sell locally and put a band together to do it in clubs etc.... yeah, I hear all that. That is a totally legit way to make money from music and songwriting. However, I'm not into gigging any more..... I enjoy composing and writing and being in bed at a reasonable hour. Besides, that the live music biz in NC is pretty retched these days. It was fun back in the day... been there done that, got the T-shirt and scars to prove it. I'll let someone else stare at the white lines at 2am.

I didn't see a link on your signature to any of your music. I'd like to hear the stuff you're writing and recording. Hearing what you're writing is the way to determine where you are as a writer and a home recording producer. There is such a high bar in Nashville or any other music city scene these days. Competition is the toughest it's ever been from a number of factors. Only the best of the best can hope to survive.

1. The music business is always changing and things are always getting harder for new folks to break in.
2. Artists are not releasing as many CD projects so the available spaces for material are less available.
3. Many artists are writing or co-writing all their own songs.
4. Quality of the music on songs has gone through the roof
5. Everybody and anybody can record in their basement or bedroom and produce decent sounding stuff

that said....

No one in the music business.... not one person, cares what a songwriter looks like or how old they are. So the opportunity to write songs is still open to folks of all ages. The competition, as I said, is still brutal. The best way to deal with that is through education and advancement of your skills in several areas...... writing songs, and music production, as well as networking and building a catalog of published music.

Essentially you have to write better than the folks in Nashville and LA (depending on your genre) and the music coming out of your studio has to be master quality.

I was a member of TAXI for a number of years ($200/yr) and also a member of Nashville Songwriters Assn ($150yr approx) (NSAI). I have submitted songs for listings I saw on TAXI as well as to NASI for in depth review of my songwriting skills. Both or either of these companies are great resources. NSAI has a video library available to members only which covers every aspect of the music business as told by the folks on the inside of the Nashville country music scene. They don't work magic but both TAXI & NSAI can help you with education, and TAXI does have the ability to get your music to the movers and shakers assuming you get past the TAXI screeners. The bar is high. In my time with them, I averaged about a 10% forward rate which they say is about normal.

Outside of either of those 2 companies, I have cultivated several contacts on my own, which are receptive to my music. I have had a number of songs signed by some major film & TV libraries and I just signed with another last week. I currently have a number of cues on the desk of a TV show producer with another publisher I signed with back in November. One listing with TAXI, I sent 3 songs, one was forwarded, 2 rejected.... the publisher on that listing signed all 3 songs when he heard them. So the screeners opinions didn't match what the publisher was looking for.

NASI offers very little help... as they gave one of my tunes a "thumbs up it's ready to pitch" then offered absolutely no advice on how to get it to a publisher,,,, no reference, no forwards, no nothing, you're on your own.... I even had a one on one mentoring session with the NSAI president for an hour.... I asked about that one song that was given the "ready to pitch", asking for help directly.... he was not able to give any assistance either.....very disappointing to say the least.

While with TAXI, I met and spoke with several folks who earn a 5 to 6 figure income from writing for film & TV. It's not an easy road, and success comes slowly and builds with time... but it's a possibility for those who have the writing AND recording chops.

At the first TAXI road rally, (2009) I had the opportunity to set down and speak with Jason Blume and play 2 of my songs for him to get his comments. His words to me.... Herb, you write good songs. Nothing inherently wrong with the songs.... but here's the problem... they are "good songs" not GREAT songs. In Nashville there are 20,000 "good" song writers, and to break through the crowd, you need to write GREAT SONGS... nuff said.... In another break out session, a hit song everyone would recognize was being discussed. Major artist. The demo submitted to the publisher was played. then the artist version was played..... on the "demo" , the quality, instrumentation, the instrumental licks, all sounded exactly like the artist version. The singer was amazing. and that was the "demo". Yep, the days of sending a vocal guitar demo recorded in your bedroom are gone..... everything send now days has to be master quality, even if you do send a piano/guitar vocal demo... it better sound like it was recorded in a big studio and not your bedroom.

That brings me to using Band in A Box and real band on your recordings. I use it all the time for writing. However, you can not simply throw some chords into BB and hit render to wave and call it done and send it to a publisher thinking they will sign it. That is where the real work begins, once you have the song in it's structural form. There is so much more that has to go into the final cut. All that could easily be the topic of a new thread. Having a good computer based DAW I think, is ESSENTIAL to the entire process. Being able to work on the mastering and polishing of the song is crucial.... and having a DAW that you understand and know how to use, as well as having the third party tools to do the job correctly, is indispensable.

Even writing for film & TV as I and many others are doing, requires the absolute best quality of music possible. You are sending music to people who listen to music for a living, generally all day, every day. They know what a fiddle or a steel guitar is supposed to sound like. They know what a Steinburg piano sounds like, and if they hear a muffled piano, or a midi sounding instrument or song, or artifacts from RT's conversion process, they are tossing that song into the trash. Don't even think about sending a midi sounding tune unless they are specifically asking for MIDI sounding tracks.

Look at the TAXI listings and you will see quite frequently something to the effect that "tracks must sound REAL.... no MIDI" .. they mean it.

So, while some doors in the music business have closed to both you and I due to age.... and vocal talent (on my part) issues, the doors to the songwriting end of things are still open to those who have the skills to deliver useful music. It's still a challenge to get through those doors and get to the right people, but having songs that they want and need is the first step.

Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. I generally am willing to share things I have learned, or heard, or was told by others who are farther along than I am in this journey. I'm always willing to listen to the advice and opinions of others. It is a journey and not a destination.


All of the above is simply my opinion. What you think or know may not be the same as this. There is no "one way" to do things in this business.

carry on....

Buying more gear will not be your answer here. You have nearly unlimited track count already if you are using PG RB or PTPA or any other DAW software, with more than what you can do with a digital 4 track studio hardware piece of gear.

Maybe the workflow will be different - I find those pieces of gear terribly frustrating because one has to dig through menus and button combinations to reveal the function desired for more than just the basic arming of tracks for recording.

But maybe you'll find inspiration to be more prolific with songwriting.