PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic Recommendations for PA

That is very interesting Tom, thanks for the detailed explanation. I think I will go over to GC and check it out. One of those with two subs just might be the ticket if I can get some kind of a deal on it. I'm totally with you and Mac, at my stage in life good enough is good enough if it's easy to carry and set up.

Bob

I made it to the music store to check out the Bose L1 Compact. My overall impression is that for the size and weight of it - absolutely amazing. I loaded up my MP3 player with some BIAB arrangements of jazz trios and quartets using RealDrums and RealTracks. I also loaded some cuts from commercial CD's. When we played them, the sound was amazing from almost anywhere I stood. I moved back about 50' in all directions and the L1 still had very nice sound. When I told him some of my gigs were outdoors, we moved the unit outside in the mall. Setup and breakdown is everything it claims to be. It literally took about 30 seconds to break it down. Once outside (again 30 second setup), I could see that it lost some punch but still sounded good from 30'. We never cranked it up to the point where the overload light would turn red. It was always at half volume. How much more it had I am not sure but it was plenty loud for a small venue. I got so involved in playing with the L1, I failed to ask to connect a piano to it. I will do this in a follow-up visit to the store.

Bose also sells a T1 sound module. It's a mixer, reverb, compressor, limiter, etc that works with the L1 series. I think it takes 5 inputs and each channel has typical Bose sound games you can play with. The mic input on the Compact has some sort of built-in Tonematch that optimizes it. I couldn't tell if it add a little reverb but singing through it sounded very nice.

The negatives I could find are:

1. The bass up close (3') seemed a little muddy. Stepping away from the unit, it cleared up. But I could tell when the upright bass was playing that regardless of sound games, capturing the bottom of the bass was a challenge. I think the subwoofer is an 8" and has a low of 60hz. An acoustic bass goes down in the mid 40hz. It sounded very good, it just didn't pound on your chest.

2. Limited expansion. If you want a subwoofer, you are out of luck. You can chain L1's together but this sounds like a bit expensive to me. There is an output jack that we connected to a Roland KC-150. The KC seemed to muddy up the overall sound of the L1. Maybe with a crossover, one could connect a sub.

I'm going back to try some different songs and play keys through it before making a decision. The light weight and easy setup are pulling me in but the sound will be the determining factor.

Rachael

Hi Rachael,

If the Bass is all-important to you, go back and check out the older Bose models in that lineup that feature the separate subwoofer setup.

s for the Compact system, the pricepoint is much better, the portability is -- to me -- the big thing and of course it is a tradeoff, but for many of the smaller gigs I feel it is a tradeoff that I could live with...

(If not, I would add my own subwoofer system somehow, which would likely be a warranty voider if there is no built in Line Output from which to derive the signal. But I would first shake it down as-is for a good while to see if I couldn't live with it.


--Mac

Very good review Rachael. I'm curious what you would think of the smaller powered speakers like the 10" JBL Eon's next to the L1 or maybe the 12" Mackies. The big 15's" are probably not a fair comparison because of the cost although like me, if you sometimes need stronger bass there may not be a choice but to go bigger. JBL also has an Eon sub so that with two 10" wouldn't be too bad to move around but then adding that sub pushes the price up. Tom talked about plugging in a second Bose sub and I went on Ebay yesterday looking for L1's and found somebody selling the standalone Bose sub for $249 and according to the writeup, it just plugs in so ask if the store has a second sub you can try. I'm impressed by virtually everyone's comment that the Bose sounds the same on stage as it does 50 feet away without being harsh with very wide dispersion.
I know exactly what you mean when you talk about muddy bass. I've tried everything over the years to get good bass out smaller cabinets and it just doesn't happen. Many years ago I had my bass cab custom built from Altec's handbook. It has a 15" Altec 421H in it and it sounds gorgeous but what a slug to haul around. Luckily, I only need it some of the time.

Bob

The Bose plugin subwoofers cannot be implemented with the Compact model line.

They work with the older and slightly larger L-1 series setups and be careful to find the right sub to go with the right model L-1.

But the Compact model, they elected not to include subwoofer option as it is intended to be a lower pricepoint offering for the person who has need of a smaller and lighter weight system for the smaller venues.


Comparing these systems to other conventional systems is likely not going to be very fruitful. The other systems are based on the old "projector" designs and sound is focused way out in front of them somewhere, at focal point. The Bose systems are totally different concepts and as such they are designed to disperse sound literally all over the place rather than focused.

I don't view the new Bose Compact as being a replacement for my present sound system at all.

For the larger venues I would want to keep "ole relibable and loud" on the job.


--Mac

I initially looked at the new JBL Eon 315. 26 lbs and $1000/pair. They sounded nice but were not very powerful. I listened side by side the 315 and the New Eon 510. The 510 just didn't have the bass of the 315. The 315 is still on my list but the optimum choice is the 515 at 23 lbs but $1600/pair. Plenty of power, reasonably light and good bass. If I can afford it, I'll go with the 515s. I'm shopping around to see if anyone will take my old gear as trade-in.

I wish Bose would have made the new Compact L1 able to use a sub. I'd get the L1 in a flash if I new I could add more bass if needed. The older L1s are too expensive for me. I'm still considering the Compact but am concerned about power for those medium size venues.

Still contemplating and always looking for advice.

Thanks
R

I too went, while in Toronto the last 3 days drop in and hear one, actually at the real Bose Store at Bloor Radio, and at Long and McQuade. The tracks I listened to were ok for bass. I wondered about taking the earphone out to bass amp after reading the posts, I take the headphone out and stick it into my Roland cube with the bass cranked and the treble and mid dead. I found that best, without going to a rack with a crossover and bass bin.

Good idea, John, the headphone out can indeed function as a Line Out to crossover and powered subwoofer.


--Mac

When the original L1 Model 1’s first came out, there was a great deal of discussion on the Bose forum regarding having sufficient bass output even though you could use 2 woofers with the Model 1. Subsequently, Bose produced a device called a Packlite so that you could use 4 woofers with a single L1 Model 1. As I’ve said previously, I have 2 woofers on a single L1 and can get the stage to vibrate so I can only imagine what it’s like have 4 woofers! So based on the earliest posts on the original systems, I am a little surprised that Bose didn’t have a way to hook up another bass unit to the Compact. But as Mac said earlier, it was for cost considerations.

From what I can gather, the L1 Compact is designed for rooms with 100 people or less. The Model 1 and Model 2 versions are for rooms up to 500 people.

For musicians that play larger venues, most of them will plug directly into their Bose systems and use it as their stage monitors because of the excellent clarity of sound and feed the house systems from the line outs of the Bose. This is how Steve Miller and Todd Rungren use their systems. I saw the Flatlanders about a month ago at the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago and they used 3 Model 1’s (I do not remember their woofer setup) and fed the house system.

I do realize the cost of the Model 1 or 2 is prohibitive in many cases. But if I was a regular gigging musician who had to set up 2 PA speakers, a board, cables running every where…I would get tired of that quickly…as a matter of fact, I do have a little side business where I record school concerts and I AM sick and tired of hauling my 16 track recorder, 100’s of feet of cable, setting up anywhere from 4 to 16 microphones and then tearing it all down after the concert and hauling it out…so I can empathize with gigging musicians totally. Being 52 yo, the ease of load in, setup, tear down, and load out would be a significant factor in my sound system choice…and in the case of the Model 1 and 2, the sound is excellent in my experience (I can’t speak of the Compact though).

Bob, if it’s financially feasible for you, I think you would be very pleased with the advantages of the Bose system (sound and setup/tear down). There is the 45 day return policy (no questions asked) from Bose. Their customer service is excellent, similar to the over-the-top excellent CS from PGMusic.

BTW, I’m on vacation so that’s why I haven’t chimed in earlier. I am only looking at the forum every few days

Tom

Rachael,

Since this thread has gravitated to a discussion of the Bose system, here are a few notes I made to myself after a hands-on test I did in 2005. I tested the original L-1 Personal Amplification System, before the compact model was available, so please keep that context in mind.

I posted this material on this forum once before, but I offer it again in light of the current discussion.

For what it's worth, I'm generally a big fan of Bose products. I have four (rather ancient) Model 800 cabinets that I've used for over 30 years for my PA system (Shure Vocalmaster), guitar, and electric bass (yup), and they've always sounded fantastic. But the original L-1 system has its drawbacks, despite the terrific sound. Read on...


BOSE Personal Amplification System – Hands-on Test, 03/07/05

Tested system at Guitar Center, 86th and Sheridan, Arvada, Colorado. Configuration included L1 Cylindrical Radiator speaker column, PS1 Power Stand, R1 remote control, and one B1 Bass Module. Testing was done with guitar (Buscarino Jazzcaster) and microphone (Shure SM-58) over a 45-minute period. Here are my observations:

1. Guitar sounded very good and clean at low to moderate volumes.

2. Mic sound was excellent.

3. I found that while Bose product literature advertises “nearly 180-degree sound dispersal”, high frequencies began to drop off noticeably at about 70 degrees from center, which translates to a full-frequency dispersal range of about 140 degrees.

4. The L1 speaker column is a two-piece unit that requires the PS1 Power Stand, both to physically support it, and electrically connect to it. Each piece of the speaker column weighs an estimated 25 - 30 lbs. When assembled and mounted on the Power Stand, the column stands approx. seven feet tall, which gives it a very high center of gravity. Consequently, it seems especially prone to being knocked over. The assembled column is approximately 4 ½” in diameter and contains a total of sixteen front-facing 2” speakers, spaced on approx. 4” – 5” centers. The speaker column has no amplifier jacks or connectors other than the proprietary connectors to the matching Power Stand, which precludes using the speaker column with any other amplifier.

5. The PS1 Power Stand is approx. two feet in diameter, 6” – 8” tall, and weighs an estimated 35 lbs. It houses a four-channel amplifier with numerous input and output options, no on-board effects, and no obvious connectors for any other external speakers. Only two of the channels have ¼” input jacks. Its sizable footprint (relative to the thin speaker column) together with its low height makes it a hazard to trip over, especially on a dark, small stage or bandstand.

6. The B1 Bass Module is a floor-mounted self-contained amp and speaker, and was connected to the PS1 Power Stand for the test. However, standing 5 - 15 away, I was unable to hear any sound at all coming from it. The store employee who assisted with the test had to get down on the floor and put his head within a foot of the unit to confirm that there was sound.

7. I’m suspicious of the fact that Bose publishes no specs for this system. Many potential users would want to know basic data such as output R.M.S. and peak wattage and speaker-column impedance. Admittedly, this may be a moot point, since by design, each component of this system can be used only with the others.

8. Price: The Guitar Center is apparently the only authorized dealer in the Denver area for these units, and sells them at the full M.S.R.P. of $1,699.99 for the basic amp / speaker unit and $1,999.98 including one Bass Module. No discount.

9. A very curious phenomenon: as I increased the guitar’s volume, notes seemed to go sharp; e.g., a low G played on the 6th string sounded ¼-tone sharp. Also noticed it when playing G octave notes on the 1st and 4th strings; the 4th-string G sounded ¼-tone sharp. Conclusion: most likely due to overtones from room acoustics.


Evaluation: while the system sounds fantastic and the construction quality is excellent, it is too large, too heavy, and too much an on-stage safety hazard to appeal to me. It is also overpriced in terms of perceived value. That said, I certainly found the LS1 speaker column to be uniquely innovative. When Bose can design and build a system that’s half the size and weight, half the footprint, and half the price of this system while maintaining the same quality of sound, I’ll buy it in a New York heartbeat!

Jon

I tested with my ears the latest version of that L1. Very lightweight. You could plug the top of the column into the base without the other 2 parts. The 3 pieces in the column weigh about 4 pounds.
The sound was exceptional. I played light jazz from my blackberry into the system. The bass was good. They brough out a shure 57 mic and stood 2 feet in front of the unit and there was no feedback!

I suggest they've improved the product, and that you'd have to go with your gear and try it out. The price on the L1 was $999. CDN or about 825USD.

John –

Your observation about the lack of acoustic feedback from the Bose system is one of the big reasons I’m a fan of their cabinets. Although I don’t use the L-1 system discussed above, it’s worth emphasizing the advantage of Bose speaker systems in feedback reduction. Sorry I failed to mention it in my post above.

When I use my Bose 800 cabs in a P.A. configuration, I typically position two of them at the left and right rear corners of the bandstand area on tripod stands, at a height of about 6 – 7 feet, and face the speakers pointing toward the diagonally-opposite corners of the room. In other words, before reaching the audience, the sound must first pass above and “through” the band.

There are two extra bonuses to this setup:

1. The band hears exactly what the audience hears (unlike the more common method of setting the P.A. speakers out in front of the band). If the volume is comfortable for us, it’s plenty loud enough for the audience.
2. On-stage monitors are completely unnecessary – less stuff to carry.

With five Shure mics on stage, feedback has never been a problem – even in good-sized rooms with upwards of 500 people in the audience. With most other P.A. speakers, this setup would not only invite feedback, it would be virtually guaranteed! But not with the Bose cabinets.

In a similar vein, I’ll never forget a wedding I once played. Bandstand space was extremely tight. I brought my P.A., but there wasn’t enough room for the usual pair of tripod speaker stands. I had to set just one Bose cabinet on top of my Fender Showman head, which in turn sat atop a Kustom bass cabinet (two 15” speakers). This brought the Bose cabinet about 5 ½ feet above the floor – just about head level. Due again to the tight quarters, I had to stand directly in front of this stack of stuff, with my vocal mic pointed right at the Bose cabinet, a distance of 2 – 3 feet. Only my head separated the two.

Much to my amazement, I was able to talk and sing through the mic at a volume adequate to fill the room without a bit of feedback! I attribute this to three factors:

A. The Bose 800 cabinet, which has the speakers mounted on two facets that direct the sound away from dead center, but rather a bit to each side.
B. The use of a very directional Shure mic.
C. Keeping the volume down to a very sensible level.

For me, the combination of Shure mics, a Shure P.A. head, and Bose cabinets has proven to virtually eliminate feedback.

Jon

I heard a one-man-band use one of these in an L-shaped room, where he was at the corner of the L - each leg of the L about 20'x40' (wedding reception) and I was quite impressed.

The points made by ColoradoGuy - particularly the very minimal setup this guy had to fill this room AND the lack of a monitoring system was very impressed.

That day, I made a vow, if I have to gig that way, I'm going to save up for one of those systems.

I know that everyone here is not necessarily a fan of Bose (I particularly don't like their home stereo setups - never had proper midrange), but I was impressed by this personal amplification system.

Now, on the 801 front - I used to use those things with a traveling choir I was with in High School. I was in the choir, but we all had roadie duty of some kind. Mine was setting up mains (we used either 2 or 4 801's and good old Peavey amps (can't remember the model)) and EQing the mains for the room. Those 801's were in use for many years before I was in the choir and many years after. Every weekend, with kids setting them up and beating them up and throwing them under the bus (where we kept our gear). They lived in the outdoors, in other words, in Michigan. They are still cranking away. I was in the choir from '81 to '85. We also had a set of I believe the model was 401 speakers (wooden cabinets vs. the injection molded cases on the 801's). I think Bose may have pioneered use of injection molded cases for PA speakers. Can't confirm that, but seems like everyone else was using vinyl covered wood (heavy).

We played in churches of all manner of sizes. Biggest gig was 1/2time show at the Pontiac Silverdome, where the Detroit Pistons used to play in a corner of the floor of the stadium. They had the court and portable stands curtained off from the 3/4 of the football field that wasn't used. We set up behind the curtain for our 1/2time concert (and not very many people made the trip to the 'choir behind the curtain'.

Anyhow, to get those 801's to project a little bit, the Pistons had set up some scaffolding for us - maybe 4 stories worth. The local crew hauled the 801's up on top of those things with some pulleys and the set them on the speaker pole mounts, so that they were kind of aiming down.

Now, what they didn't do was tie them down!. Some kids were fooling around on the field (after all, it was the Lion's astroturf - gotta get in a game of duct-tape football) and bumped into the scaffolding.

One of those 801's got to rocking and eventually plummeted to the Silverdome floor. No teenagers were hurt in this test.

No, the injection molded case did not survive. In fact, that thing basically looked like it exploded. Speakers flew everywhere from the carnage. I still have one of the magnets from one of the drivers in that thing. It's a strong sucker.

So, to make a long story short - Don't put your Bose up on 4 stories of scaffolding without anchoring them, and you'll probably get years of service.

Did somebody say Loud?

I heard 2 roadies joking after a load in to a gig years ago when I was a cadet reprter on a music paper.

Apparently JBL stood for "just bloody loud".

(!)

J.