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I believe PG Music should really focus on fixing existing issues than developing new features for the software.

One major issue of BiaB, is Playing Pattern Inconsistency. Each RealTrack has a sub style A and a sub style B, under each sub style, there are different patterns being played and recorded, which are uncontrollable, and therefore causing inconsistency of the generated track, ruins the musicality.

Currently, the only solution is using Partial Regen to manually regenerate bar by bar until the playing pattern is correct, which is very time consuming.

Guitar arpeggio tracks, such as RealTrack 1831, is a typical example. You can't generate a track with consistent arpeggio patterns being played in each bar, unless you manually mess with the partial regen.

What a shame.

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Last edited by Andrew - PG Music; 01/13/24 12:54 PM. Reason: Updated thread title

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It's always been one of my pet hates, everything is too random and inconsistent. It's the reason for me that partial regen and the ability to copy /paste was the most important update ever. Still a bit clunky but far more usable now than it ever was. I can't see this ever changing, so thankfully things are becoming slowly more editable.

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I suggested having a Direct Input guitar by name Fender Strat then record all different patterns/solos for it so you can change from one pattern in a song to another at any bar using partial regen so you get the same tone to give seamless changes from one pattern/solo to another and being able to add any FX you like to it.
RealTracks A Different Way

You can make a usertrack easy enough with the same repetitive pattern all the way through.

I just look at what SFZ RealTrack 1831 is using for Playable RealTracks and just dropped SN0714.sfz into Sforzando VST in the DAW that is following the chord track using MusicLab RealStrat with the same arrpegio pattern all the way through sending midi only out to Sforzando. I can copy the Biab RC and create the same pattern for RealStrat.

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I'm not touching this one. The technical detail about how these individual files are created, stored and finally processed and produced into an output track is above my pay grade.

This part, I can agree with though:
Quote
I believe PG Music should really focus on fixing existing issues than developing new features for the software.
I like to think of them as 'Improvements'.


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Originally Posted by MusicVillain
I believe PG Music should really focus on fixing existing issues than developing new features for the software.

100% agree

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"I believe PG Music should really focus on fixing existing issues than developing new features for the software."

I disagree. MTP Library is a vivid example of a new power feature that by itself "fixed" whole truckload of separate existing issues and workflow gaps. This is one of the best tools rolled out from the time I have started using BIAB.

Perhaps "new" features could be re-imagined / re-written older features that have existing issues or limitations.

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Guitar arpeggio tracks, such as RealTrack 1831, is a typical example. You can't generate a track with consistent arpeggio patterns being played in each bar, unless you manually mess with the partial regen.
What a shame.

I generated the following song (see image), and rendered an m4a with just the Bass, Drums, and RT 1831 (Guitar, Electric, Rhythm PopModernGrooveBright A-B Ev16 075). Other Guitar and Piano tracks muted so you can hear it clearly.

I generated the song one single time without any partial re-generations, and I think it sounds amazing. You can listen and see if you agree or not.

https://nn.pgmusic.com/pgfiles/support/misc/_HARTBRK_demo.m4a

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If you think my demo sounds good but you had a specific song that sounds bad, freeze it and send a link, then we can investigate and see if it can be fixed or if it's just the way the RT is. RT 1831 has not been touched since 2011, but we often revisit old RT's to improve them. If you are using chords that are very unusual (not commonly played) for the style of music AND you have natural arrangements disabled you are more likely to hear unnatural playing.


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Sounds good to me Andrew.
1) This is a very specific request for repetitive bars, that I would personally solve in the interim with looping a slice of the render in the DAW.
2) Hidden in the OP is a request for a new feature.
3) I was disappointed to find out that the new looping feature in the track view does not use metadata so that it follows the chord changes.
3) Stopping to Improve BIAB workflow and ease of use will win more customers than adding another set of RT's


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Andrew the example you used is great. Personally I find that when I get something that doesn’t sound right it is in the chord structure and song layout. I feel that some small variations in pattern lend to realism. No real players plays the patterns robotically there are always small differences in patterns brought on by chord changes and feel.

I do agree that a year or workflow enhancements and older request will be a game changer for a new release.


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Andrew's example is exactly what the problem is.

The guitar track is inconsistently and randomly generated, sounds unprofessional and messy.

To make things clear, I used Andrew's style "HARTBRK.STY" to generate a very simple song, with only major, minor, and dominant chords. The inconsistency problem is so obvious in this song.

There are two versions of this song: a good version and a bad version. The bad version was simply generated and frozen, sounds like crap. The good version was first generated, then Alt+F8 partial re-generated to fix any inconsistency portions, sounds great but is time consuming.

The two fronzen SGUs, as well as the two rendered MP3 files, are saved here in the Dropbox folder.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/lu69zmuyjg9k7zfze7m3v/h?dl=0&rlkey=kzzld6kkhz4fr7gkpyqsr1z5o

Listen, compare, and judge for yourself.

I wish people in this forum can come up with some brilliant and efficient ideas rather than partial regen each bar until it's right.

The new 2024 "Multi Track View" doesn't help. It's garbage. The snap feature is not working, and there is no volume automation feature like the good old audio edit window.

Sigh.

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Side point. Use Track view and F8.
Select any portion of any track, hit F8 (not Alt+F8) > it will regenerate that piece.

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I believe Charlie Fogle in his last post was talking about the opposite.

He is providing a way of using Medley Maker to stitch different RealTracks into one mixer track.

I was asking how to REDUCE the variety of a single RealTrack 1831 to have less playing patterns and higher consistency without partial regen bar by bar.

He was talking about how to INCREASE variety by combining multiple RealTracks, which is the opposite of what I was asking.


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MusicVillian, you're totally correct. I didn't interpret your post to simplify at all. My mistake. I'll remove my post so not to muddy the discussion.


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Originally Posted by Charlie Fogle
MusicVillian, you're totally correct. I didn't interpret your post to simplify at all. My mistake. I'll remove my post so not to muddy the discussion.

Charlie Fogle, please don't remove your post.

It took me some time to read through your post and some effort to understand what you were actually talking about. It is the opposite of what I was asking, but in the meanwhile it is a very useful method that not many users know.

So, please keep your post in this thread, so future visitors can see this post and learn about your method of using Medley Maker.


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Quote
There are two versions of this song: a good version and a bad version. The bad version was simply generated and frozen, sounds like crap. The good version was first generated, then Alt+F8 partial re-generated to fix any inconsistency portions, sounds great but is time consuming.

Thanks for posting your examples. I disagree but I understand your comment about RT1831 now. First, I think your "bad" demo actually sounds fine, except I noticed a couple of small things - at bar 1 the phrase boundary sounds a bit off, and the Ending actually plays the B (distorted chords) variation. I think there are probably dedicated endings for the A variation. Both of those things can easily be fixed (by us). The phrase at one of the iii chords (bar 19) could also be tweaked.

However in comparing your bad with your good, I see that what you don't like is that the clean guitar sometimes strums a chord at the beginning of a phrase. Now that we have defined it, we have something that is actionable. I see that there isn't a simple version available for RT1831, perhaps we could make one that excludes the strummed patterns.

Last edited by Andrew - PG Music; 01/12/24 07:53 PM.

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MusicVillan. Thanks for encouragement regarding my post. It was directed toward increasing variety rather than reducing variety which prompted me to post based on this comment in your first post;

<< "One major issue of BiaB, is Playing Pattern Inconsistency. Each RealTrack has a sub style A and a sub style B, under each sub style, there are different patterns being played and recorded, which are uncontrollable, and therefore causing inconsistency of the generated track, ruins the musicality.

Currently, the only solution is using Partial Regen to manually regenerate bar by bar until the playing pattern is correct, which is very time consuming.

Guitar arpeggio tracks, such as RealTrack 1831, is a typical example. You can't generate a track with consistent arpeggio patterns being played in each bar, unless you manually mess with the partial regen."
>>

Your remarks are correct and RT1831 did give unsatisfactory results from what you were seeking. I see in the Bad Version SGU you posted that it required you spend time and effort to edit the generated track. My post intended to demonstrate that more variety results in less post generation editing. It can give you what you want when you generate a song without having to spend time and effort with what you described as inconsistent patterns.

My initial post may benefit users in the future but it was conceptual and may be more suited in a post of its own.

However, even though Andrew has some ideas to improve results using your workflow, I applied the steps I outlined in my earlier post and BIAB resolved your issue in less than 30 seconds. I loaded your SGU Bad file, opened the RealTrack Picker and did a search for the Artist playing RealTrack 1831 and the search found 32 RealTracks (folders) for Dave Cleveland. Well, the first RealTrack below RT1831 is RT 1829 which is Mr. Cleveland playing the same instrument, same setup and tone, correct tempo because it is an arpeggio pattern RealTrack that plays the exact same riff as RT1831. I didn't need to look any further.

Adding RT1829 to a vacant track and a single generation produced enough of the riffs without the strums that only mixing the tracks by bouncing between the two using RT1829 to be active in the measures that RT1831 strummed those measures. I matched volume 90, panning -45 and reverb -55 and the two tracks matched exactly.

The concept I intended to present was not that your technique of loading a single soloist and partial regeneration 40 times to edit is incorrect. It isn't. But BIAB has features that are not commonly known or used to get what you're looking for and by using more material from additional RealTracks that are similar in production to have BIAB generate what you need in a single generation rather than have to use post generation tools for editing to get what you need.

Audition RT1829 and you can hear the similarities between it and RT1831 and you'll get an idea of the concept I mentioned earlier. I'll be glad to answer any questions.

Single Generation Render with no partial regenerations

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Originally Posted by Andrew - PG Music
However in comparing your bad with your good, I see that what you don't like is that the clean guitar sometimes strums a chord at the beginning of a phrase.

Andrew you are absolutely right! This is exactly the inconsistency I was talking about! The clean guitar is half picking and half strumming, when randomly mixed together, the generation sounds very unprofessional.

The strumming part should be tagged and made into a separate substyle, for example, substyle C. Since it's an old RealTrack I understand that not much can be done.

My biggest concern, is that there are hundreds of RealTracks just like this 1831, with different stuff packed into the same substyle, causing unbearable inconsistency and randomness.

Currently, my only solution is to partial regen until it's right. It's indeed working but very time consuming.

I hope there is a workaround to this.


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Charlie Fogle, I'm still trying to figure out what you were suggesting. Let me break it down here.

1. You find a similar track from the same artist, in this case, RT1829.

2. You insert RT1829 into a mixer channel, along with RT1831.

3. In fact, you can insert the same RealTrack into multiple mixer channels. For example, RT1829 in Utility track #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, etc.

4. You do a full track generation.

5. Once all tracks are generated, you listen to each bar and locate the bars with bad generation.

6. Then you comp/merge the multiple tracks, keep the good bars, mute the bad bars.

My questions are:

A - How can you "bounce" between each track, and mute/unmute unwanted bars?
F5 bar settings, volume automation, using a DAW, etc, all seems to be cumbersome and time consuming.

B - In my example song, the first half and the second half use almost the same chords.
If you like a certain bar, and you want to use it again in the same song but in a different location, how can you copy this bar to another location of the song?

Please elaborate.


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Originally Posted by MusicVillain
Currently, my only solution is to partial regen until it's right. It's indeed working but very time consuming.

I hope there is a workaround to this.

I agree with you about inconsistency. I used to make my own user tracks in the past when I wanted a simple consistent track, but even that wasn't without problems.
Since partial regen with copy paste, things are now a lot easier and mostly sufferable. I find what I want and use the copy paste, here's what I do, you might find it faster than partial regen and pot luck.

First, create the song how you want it with intro and ending, let's say that's 20 bars for argument's sake. You probably can do so, but I don't use repeats or choruses, I lay the whole song out linearly.

The hard part is the ending because it doesn't work well with regen, so best to try getting that working first. Once you have the ending working in a way you are happy with, freeze everything and save just in case smile

Now you extend the song length from say 20 bars to whatever, 100 if need be. Type in some chords that you need, doesn't need to be in the order of the song. You now have an 80 odd bar scratch pad.

Select bars 24 to 100 (assuming you have a 4 bar ending) and then ALT/F8 regenerate the guitar part. You've now got a whole bunch of guitar parts regenerated that you can just quickly listen to, find what you want and use copy paste to put them where you want in the actual song.

Once done, reduce bars back to the song length. You might need to use audio edit if there's any small pre-beat stuff generated at the very end.

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Originally Posted by MusicVillain
Charlie Fogle, I'm still trying to figure out what you were suggesting. Let me break it down here.

1. You find a similar track from the same artist, in this case, RT1829.

2. You insert RT1829 into a mixer channel, along with RT1831.

3. In fact, you can insert the same RealTrack into multiple mixer channels. For example, RT1829 in Utility track #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, etc.

4. You do a full track generation.

5. Once all tracks are generated, you listen to each bar and locate the bars with bad generation.

6. Then you comp/merge the multiple tracks, keep the good bars, mute the bad bars.

My questions are:

A - How can you "bounce" between each track, and mute/unmute unwanted bars?
F5 bar settings, volume automation, using a DAW, etc, all seems to be cumbersome and time consuming.

B - In my example song, the first half and the second half use almost the same chords.
If you like a certain bar, and you want to use it again in the same song but in a different location, how can you copy this bar to another location of the song?

Please elaborate.
My suggestion is advising that rather than manually go through time and effort finding the right combination of a RealTrack which is a folder with normally 20-30 individual audio files of that instrument, BIAB has tools and techniques that expand the search options in finding suitable material.

2024 BIAB has more than 5,000 hours in over 4,700 RealTracks of 3,926 instruments. Manually searching a single folder's files and partially regenerating 40-50 times in a limited search will give satisfactory results. My point is that BIAB is programmed to do the same thing but covering much more material automatically.

Currently, a BIAB song project can handle 1-94 instrument changes across 1-24 tracks in about a dozen different arrangement combinations at its minimum in a single generation render to wav audio file. You won't find any User Showcase posts or forum discussions about this. Overwhelmingly, users depend on DAWs to edit, a few BIAB generated tracks because BIAB doesn't have a pretty gui and it's too hard.

Question A - all the ways you mention and using Part Markers, various number of bars - 2, 4, 6, 8, 16, 32, chorus or song. BIAB can play 10 different instrument parts on a single track, simultaneously or sequentially in the bar variations stated. There are 3,926 instruments accessible per track and the same instrument can be used repeatedly on any single Legacy Track from the Medley Maker. Part Markers can be manually placed at any bar to prompt instrument changes.
Instrument changes can also be programmed using pre-made or user custom made Style changes.

Question B - There are multiple ways to copy/paste bars or regions of audio. I most often use the Audio Edit Window.

I've attached screenshots to demonstrate using the RealTrack Medley Maker and Part Markers to alternate between RT1831 and RT1829 on your SGU Chord Sheet. This is a simple project with a specific purpose to eliminate strumming patterns. This method is also useful to develop solo's between multiple instruments for riffs, middle eights, intro's and outro's.

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