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1] C7+9 (diminished whole tone scale) chord tones are C E G# Bb D#
2] C7#4 (Lydian dominant)
3] Half diminished chords (C Eb Gb Bb) (I think this one is a minor flat five chord - m7b5 - to BIAB?)
thanks
Zero
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Hey Zero, you can type C7#9 by inputting Cn, C7#4 by inputting C9#11 (a more correct way of identifying that chord), Half diminished chords can be entered by simply putting an h after the root name as in Ch.
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thanks bob but I dont understand which chord is which in your explanation.
The half diminished chord is Ch this I understand.
1] C7+9 (diminished whole tone scale) chord tones are C E G# Bb D#... Did you say the C7#9 is this chord, this would have a dominant 7th and a #9 but no raised fifth??
2] C7#4 (Lydian dominant) Are you calling You are calling this a C9#11.. it has an extra ninth sound is this as near as you can get (its not a real problem I know but its slightly different). I dont know what you mean by 'a more correct way of identifying that chord'. I see (from a saxophonist point of view, the lydian dominant scale - whith no special ninth empahisis) but this is for piano which I am now learning. Maybe I pick hairs...
thanks
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Zero, this is why I've always hated the "+" because it's ambiguous.
The chord you are spelling is X7#5#9.
You are also getting into X7alt territory, since in a 7Alt chord, neither the fifth nor the ninth is natural. X7#5#9 is one example of X7alt, and is more precise, but you might try experimenting to see how you like the variations X7alt will give you.
Also, as Bob said, you may enter the half-diminished chord, which is Xm7b5 as "Xh", but that's only because BIAB has a number of pre-programmed shortcuts and h is one of them. You may also simply type it as it is, Xm7b5.
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Quote:
1] C7+9 (diminished whole tone scale) chord tones are C E G# Bb D#
Here your given chord tones do not match your fake chord.
The plus sign there would likely infer a C7add9 or in some notations, a C7#9.
Either way, there would be no #5, or the 9 wouldn't be sharped, as there is only the one + designator.
I know that if you handed me a sheet with that on it, I'd likely be grabbing a C7aug with a straight 9 appended. Because I tend to read the + sign as meaning, "Aug" or augmented.
Whenever you need to enter a certain chord in BiaB, the forum is not the best -- nor the fastest -- way to find out what you can enter.
The Help File, Search feature, and search for "Chord List" is one way, but I prefer the little dropdown windoqw at the lower RH of the Chord Builder window.
And here it reports to me that BiaB will accept C7#5#9, which accomodates all of your spelling above.
I often prefer to enter C7alt for a chord like that, letting the player (or in this case, the algorithm) decide whether of not to # or b the 5 and the 9, a rather common jazz practice, but this also depends on the song or at least where in the progression the chord is placed. Hey, its jazz.
Quote:
2] C7#4 (Lydian dominant)
Gotta think like a Jazzer and gotta use that Chord Builder inside BiaB.
It is the "#4" nomenclature that is kind of out of the common jazz fakechord compendium here.
Matter of fact, it would throw me for a sec if I had to read that on a chart, simply because we generally think of the Flat Five - same note, but never thought of as the Sharp Four. Thinking of it as the Flat Five is what turned jazz around at a certain point in the history of jazz.
And BiaB will accept it as C7b5.
Quote:
3] Half diminished chords (C Eb Gb Bb) (I think this one is a minor flat five chord - m7b5 - to BIAB?)
That is correct and BiaB will accep;t it as m7b5 but you can save time by simply typing the shortcut - Ch - the h appended there stands for "half diminished" and will yield the m7b5 in BiaB.
And start making the use of the Chord Builder dropdown list a part of your routine when trying to enter chords for a song.
Have Fun,
--Mac
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When people start talking about exact chord extensions it's really a waste of time because Biab is going to play what it thinks is appropriate according to the style anyway. Heck my guitarist and myself won't come up with the same voicing if a fake book chart says Eb Alt. It could be anything. One of us fine, but two chording instruments faking that? If it's a song I don't know I tend to ghost those and let it go the first time around at least so I can hear it, then maybe I'll add something for subsequent choruses.
Bob
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Zero, (and to be redundant – Zero, so may I call you Zero?), Quote:
Maybe I pick hairs...
You’ve picked quite a few hairs with this one!
Good Lord man! What kind of music are you playing? LOL! The Notes of C-E-G#-Bb-D# give you a C7#5#9, or a C7+5+9, and obviously BIAB won’t accept these, unless it’s included in the 2011 release.
With C-E-G#, you’re obviously in Aug. territory. But when you try to incorporate the other two notes, it opens up numerous possibilities. But when you throw in 2#’s and 1b into trying to name a chord, it further complicates matters.
I opened another music program I have and manually entered the notes, (and I had to use A# instead of Bb, since the program won’t allow you to use #’s and b’s in the same chord), and came up with the following:
E7M/5-/C
C9+/5+
A#7sus4/5-/C, ……………………. and the list of incomprehensible chords goes on and on.
A good chart for chords can be found here: http://www.silvergray.com/moneychords/Chord_Glossary.pdf
If you’re looking for backup chords, just focus on the first three, or maybe 4 notes of the chord, and maybe BIAB can come up with something for your needs. But if you try to throw really weird 5 note chords that are rarely used at it, BIAB will do what most, (if not all), programs will do and say …………… WTF?
Edit ...........................
P.S. Mac sez
Quote:
And here it reports to me that BiaB will accept C7#5#9, which accomodates all of your spelling above.
So I may have typed all of this for nothing! I just found it to be a challenge to figure out what you were looking for. I was typing while Mac responded. Damn, that was a lot of thought put into something I'll never use again!
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/06/10 05:00 PM.
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Hi Bob. I gave Zero the correct spelling of his chord, after I saw the error that was suggested.
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John Conley
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Matt, I didn't catch your earlier post. Quote:
The chord you are spelling is X7#5#9.
You are also getting into X7alt territory, since in a 7Alt chord, neither the fifth nor the ninth is natural. X7#5#9 is one example of X7alt, and is more precise, but you might try experimenting to see how you like the variations X7alt will give you.
Also, as Bob said, you may enter the half-diminished chord, which is Xm7b5 as "Xh", but that's only because BIAB has a number of pre-programmed shortcuts and h is one of them. You may also simply type it as it is, Xm7b5.
I wish I had noticed it. It would have saved me a lot ponderin'. I normally don't have to think about music theory past triads and the various Maj and min 7th's, so it was good practice.
Oh well. 
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Firstly thanks for the support guys - this is a good site for 'proper' musicians  (Strictly) For those that are curious: The Tune folks is Soul Eyes and I am working from an Aebersold transcription which I know and love, for sax - this time though I am using it for piano Here are the orginal chords with the BIAB equivalent chords below in bold in key of C minor are: C-/ G7+9/ C- /F7+4 Cm/G7#5#9/Cm/F7#11 F- /Bb7+9/ G half dim/ C7b9 F- /Bb7#5#9/ Gm7b5/ C7b9 Ab maj/A half dim, D7b9/ Ab/Am7b5, D7b9/First repeat: G maj/ Db7+4/Gb / F- Bb7/Eb maj/D half dim G7+9/ G/ Db7#11/Gb /F- Bb7/Eb /D 7b5, G7#5#9/ Second repeat: G half dim/C7b9/F-/Bb7+9/Eb maj/ D half dim G7b9 Gm7b5 /C7b9/F-/Bb7+9/Eb / Dm7b5, G7b9 For those interested, after I posted on the basic Rhythm changes I have been working real hard on them and can now improvise fairly fluently using scales and chords using roots, thirds fifths ,7ths, ninths and diatonic runs in Bb. I intend to take the Rhythm changes through 12 keys and have just started working on the changes in C. I need to add more exotic color to my playing, so I have picked this tune Soul Ees because it behaves in such a beautiful and unpredictable way and is slow! I hope to get some really good voicing learning from it. trouble is every time I hear it I want to get the sax out! In part this is also a lesson for me in entering changes into BIAB, I know that there is a BIAB version of Soul eyes on my hard drive but I want to learn how to do this from scratch. Hope the chords are right now. Any tips on how to approach such exotica gratefully received!
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Hi again folks I reread Mac's post maybe the #4s are 'really' flat 5s (but the do appear in the lydian of position i.e. fourth tone) OK so I am going deeeeeeep so this way we learn The song sounds good using BALFRED Jazz Bal w Pno FGredguit at 70 bpm very Mal Walden Zero
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Zero, about the F7+4 chord, you wrote that the BIAB equivalent is F7#11. While this would seem to be correct, Bob pointed out in the first reply that BIAB will not accept that chord. It must be entered F9#11. Then Mac explained that it might be better to write F7b5.
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Well, it is likely that either choice would work, as long as there are no definite clashes with a melody note involved.
Because it is Jazz.
Now that it has been clarified that the drill is from one of the Aebersold studies, that #4 nomenclature makes a bit more sense. Jamie is likely using it to provide clarity for the learning improviser, making it a bit easier for them to deal with the concept theat the Lydian sharps the four. After a bit of time and practice, that wonderful gray stuff between the ears will be able to deal with the notion that the Flat Five is "the same thing" even if calling it that isn't exactly sound practice as regards classical theory. Abbreviations like that are common in Jazz music transcription, though.
Anything that makes it an easier transcribe, or at least an easier read or copying job seems to have evolved. It is likely that the evolution may even continue somewhat, only time will tell and Fake Chording is indeed still very much a living language, as it were.
You will learn a LOT from the Aebersold stuff if you stick with it.
And using BiaB for the Aeberold is so much more flexible than just using his accompaniment recordings.
As for the Rythm Changes, great to practice them around the circle in all keys. For jazz practice, I have my students go around the circle BACKWARDS such that the keychange shift is always in 4ths rather than 5ths. C, F, Bb, Eb, etc. This is called, "backcycling" and is used quite a bit in certain jazz situations, such that the motion in 4ths can be learned at the same time as the actual improvisation over the changes. May as well familiarize the ears with hearing that motion at the same time, economizing your practice time towards efficiency.
That said, concentrate on two keys for the Rhythm Changes a bit more than the other 10.
Bb and Eb.
Those are the two keys most encountered, "on the bandstand" for the Rythm Changes, although, as with any other Jazz practice regimen, any song learned should be practiced IN ALL KEYS as you are doing. That builds ability and confidence to handle improvising over the many instances where a song changes key on the fly. Like in the 2-5-1's found in so many wonderful tunes.
And speaking of the 2-5-1's -- Practice the 2-5-1 drills with BiaB as well as the Rhythm Changes.
Straightahead,
--Mac
--Mac
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Mac I thought you might know the Aebersolds. I have about 50 of the CDs and have used them extensively on sax. I dont find them so good with keyboards - BIAB is king here. I can play many standards on sax, but this is not the same as playing keyboards of course - more than one note at once.
thanks for your input folks appreciated.
Zero
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