PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Will Biab have the Audacity... ?

.....to have Non Destructive Editing, Snapping on any beat/bar and any time signature as Audacity now has ?

I suspect it may as soon as Audacity gets a chord sheet, melodist, RTs, RDs, Partial regeneration, no wait any generation, Midi, notation window, piano roll, Audio chord wizard, guitar or piano window, drums window, sequencer, soloist, harmonist, Chord builder, juke box, lyrics window, tuber, style maker, heck styles, multiriff, and about 20 more things.

I'm not saying it doesn't need these things but hey Audacity is not even in the picture.

I don't think the question intent was: 'Will Audacity have the same features as BiaB?'

I think the question was more likely intended to be: 'Will BiaB have Non Destructive Editing, Snapping on any beat/bar and any time signature?', i.e. will BiaB add some of the features that Audacity currently has?

Thanks AudioTrack !
Can we use that as an example that it went from destructive editing to non destructive editing, to make Biab better ? or should we use protectionism to keep it in the past.
Is it good to adopt things that are shown to work or is it best to attack them. I wonder if this is what's happened all along ??
1990 New user, new idea > attack. New user, new idea > attack. New user, new idea > attack. New user, new idea > attack. 2023
I remember way back being attacked for asking for a solo button on the tracks in RealBand a simple no brainer thing that every DAW had.
It's a real shame that no learning has happened after all that time, Defensive Protectionism.
That's all I do, that's why I'm here, to get users to stop using Biab, it's a terrible thing, just use Audacity and say forget PowerTracks just use Harrison's Mixbus, there could not be any other reason, I totally deserve to be attacked.
From another post:
"Like Playable RealTracks I posted all this info and demos in that horrible windows Reaper to show them working, then when it's finally implemented years later a long term users said "Wow PG we didn't know that was possible to do", give me a fricken break !
I use Reaper as an example of this as I can script things in it to show how Biab CAN work not to say Reaper is better than Biab "get rid of Biab guys", if you can't SEE that then there is something chronically wrong.
I think what I will do is make a list of all functions and features that have been implemented over the many years from me suggesting and showing ways to implement them, then users that hate what I do can avoid these in Biab through spite."

I use Audacity to do simple things. For example, I like its noise reduction.

...Deb

Musy, im not trying to protect anything, and i do get your point. Non destructive editing is a good idea for BiaB. I just wish you would stop trying to paint others points as old guard or protectionism. It is not fair and tends to be rather insulting. I do appreciate where you are coming from for sure, and i also agree with you, and Trevor. This needs to be added at some point.

My true point is that Audacity is a simple and very effective audio editing "DAW" but it lacks any resemblance to what is capable in BiaB. It is a great tool in the tool chest. To compare BiaB with Audacity is like comparing a hammer and chisel with a CNC machine. And no Audacity is not the CNC machine. It may have superior audio editing tools than BiaB, but it lacks about 30 other capabilities that BiaB has.

I hope that BiaB adds what you mentioned above i really do. One thing we, meaning you , I, Trevor, and everyone else here who make good suggestions here have to realize is that as we have discussed in the past, BiaB is written in 30 year old code language, and adding somethings will take more effort. Since BiaB was not intended from the start to be a true DAW, it was written as a midi based software. It has grown to have an amazing selection of tools. some ideas you have floated out there and we have seen them come to fruition. Many others have contributed much along the way. We all want to see BiaB continue to grow.

Let's work together to be voices of reason, and positive thought to help this happen. If my response was taken as critical of your views i apologize for that, as it was meant as perspective. This is a very complex piece of software, and there is nothing remotely like it on the market. there are other programs that do part of what it does but nothing puts it all together like BiaB does. Sometimes i am amazed at the little scripts you put together to do a taks that you would like to see in BiaB, you have a gift. Still because you can get a simple DAW and a script and a third party app to do a task doesn't prove that BiaB can do this without breaking something else that slows down the annual cycle. Just look at what you pointed out regarding the Apple issue. One thing throws a monkey wrench in the machine. With something as complex as this program patience is needed. I do think for a minute Peter and gang want to just not add what the valued users want. He has shown time and again he wants to make his customers happy.

Best to you and i again apologize if I said anything to make you feel like i resist your thoughts here. It was not my intention.

Thanks Rob !

As I have said so many times, the BBPlugin will be the way forward, once it gets the current generate functions in the crossplatform code it will solve so many old limitations and skyrocket forward.

What if I suggest it to Audacity:

Re bb plugin development.

All.

I hope this post doesnt mean people will jump all over me..
and yes i think it's a great idea for the bb plug in etc.
i just think , pg shouldnt become over reliant on the bb plugin.
this post explains why.

let's talk about business strategy and the long term survival of pg to grow and prosper.

some background.

ive seen in the past in tech companies whereby a critical part produced by someone else is incorporated in the tech companies product.
In summary the market is littered by companies that fell because they didnt 'row their own oar' and relied on a third party for success.

So how does this relate to the pg plug in ?
yep …everyone wants the plug in to operate with their own personal fav daw…totally understandable BUT there is a downside per the example i gave above re tech companies relying on third parties…viz..

Now pg developers have to worry about not just imposed os changes and impacts on the plug in but also maybe the daw itself changing that the plug in is interfacing with.
so things might evolve whereby pg developers are in constant 'react mode'
using lots of pg developer resources due to things outside their control ... such has felled many a good company in the past. for example there is a new plug in format emerging and being adopted by some daws…ie CLAP.
to support it more resources will be needed if CLAP becomes dominant.

In summary…from a strategic biz perspective and long term survival of a company there are dangers in 'putting all one's eggs in one basket'.
cos if the basket changes…the implications are obvious etc etc.

Here's an example small biz study on why relying on factors outside one's control can lead to problems.
years back i knew a family that operated a thriving restaurant in a busy tourist region in england.
For years the business had provided a decent living for the family. (no great riches…just a living.).
for years the tourist buses stopped at the bus stop outside the family restaurant which was always busy. until one day the powers that be determined to move the bus stop. and you can guess the rest..the family lost a decent living cos the buses didnt stop outside the restaurant anymore.

In summary, given the above…yep develop the plug in further…
but all i'm suggesting is dont rely on it…because then pg becomes in a 'master slave relationship' whereby a third party, the master can impose conditions on the slave so the slave is in constant react mode.
and thus chew up valuable development resources.

in summary i feel strongly that pg's long term survival (from many case studies ive seen in industry) should not just be tied to third parties but also pg should 'do their own thing' and 'row their own oar' also in their product development.

should anyone doubt what i'm saying just look at case studies why some companies failed in the past due to reliance on third parties.
its no cakewalk being solely a plugin developer.

let the rotten eggs start flying…lol.
seriously…my concern is for the long term survival of pg ... .so us musos will continue to get nice new features in pg's music software apps.

happiness to all.

om

Well written OM, but I will respectfully disagree with some of your opinions.

I have had the same plug-ins operating perfectly from Cakewalk's Pro Audio (I forget how many versions), Sonar 1,2,3 and Studio One Pro 4,5,and 6. Most have quickly upgraded to VST3 so that must no be a difficult upgrade. BiaB is still using DXi and they have been dead for many years now, I know you can use the old VST2.

If PGM could make the plug-in contain most all of the standalone features I think it would be a winner. Both OSes could upgrade simultaneously.

Although I hope PGM continues I believe it could be in trouble. Young people want software to work properly from the git-go: I have other music and photographic software that does with maybe only one bug upgrade during a year. As stated many times BiaB menus need an overhaul, something really just don't work properly like micro chords while others don't work at all like different time signatures. Read Uwe Schwarz post and you may see others. Note I tried to do a song like Mercy, Mercy, Mercy as well as I'm a Man using micro-chords but I just couldn't get to respond like I wanted. That brings up another thing, terminology. That should be in the music terms everyone else is using.

IMHO PGM is trapped in old outdated code. They have done wonderful things with it buy it may be coming to an end, or at least a hold position.

Now my friends don't come down to hard on me. I have said it many times virtually all of my songs start in BiaB but I leave it as fast as I can because I get so frustrated with it. I have little music time lately so I want to make music, not try to figure out convoluted software: If any other music software gave me problems like BiaB does they would have been deleted years ago.

That is just my opinion and you may or may not agree.

Amen.

Mario.

of course you make valid points.

but although rewrites seem a great idea ive seen in industry that sometimes because the various user groups cant achieve consensus often a rewrite can go 'pear shaped'. as in fred in accounting refuses to use the features bert in production wanted. so the new rewrite stalls cos of lack of consensus tween the versus user groups.
and of course the tech development team can get stuck in the middle of it all. been there done that.

after many years in tech i was frankly glad to stop working
in tech. saw too many crazy work situations...lol.

twas always thus i dont thInk there is any type of perfect solution. ive used various music production apps over the years and even though frustrating often one just has to cope via workarounds.
which is evident on many user daw forums.

all i was suggesting from my tech experience is any company should be carefull being the slave to anothers master.

youre also correct re some new users to music production apps
who cant abide problems.
i cant abide lots of things in life like our washing machine going on the fritz lol...or the car needing a major costly repair ...mais c'est la vie.
its just life. One copes.

happiness

om

I think the reality is that the plugin will continue to be developed, and it will slowly get the attention needed to become a really nice and useful ........... Plugin. One a lot of people can use to add tracks to their favorite DAW. that was the plan from the get-go. It does that now. I do believe it will advance to have a few nice upgrades as time goes on.

One thing i do know from that last 20 years with PGM BiaB is and will always be the flagship. It is the money maker and that will not change. Having said that i hope some of the cool ideas floated for it happen. It would be fiscally foolish to toss the main program aside to develop a plugin that may at best bring in less than half what the program brings in.

Let's hope for some nice add ons to the program, the plugin and even MR. RB a program that does more than it is given credit for.

You have Biab, you have the BBPlugin/BBPlugin Standalone, you have RealBand (neglectedware) and maybe a crossplatfom Live Arranger version of the BBPlugin Standalone. The programmers doing Biab/BBW4/RealBand are Delphi, the programmer doing the crossplatform JUCE Plugin is C++ released on Win and Mac (possibly Linux) at the same time without having to spend another 6 months on the Mac version.
What would be the most sustainable and efficient for the future ?
If the Plugin/Plugin Standalone contains the generate code to start with then other popular functions that are in Biab can be added gradually without all the basically unnecessary bloated stuff.
They won't have all their eggs in one basket, you will still have the current Biab 6 months Win 6 months Mac for some time yet, but you will also have a crossplatform BBPlugin/BBPlugin Standalone/Live Arranger released at the same time for Win/Mac/(Lin).

RealBand is just simply too neglected, imagine if all the Biab Delphi programmers suddenly focused on RealBand !
I posted info 10 years ago when I was using and interested in RealBand, they are only just now talking about maybe implementing that info ask yourself. I post stuff for other users that have been neglected wanting more work put into RealBand, but me personally am over it. I think this RealBand Wishlist should be removed from the wishlist as giving false HOPE (holding onto positive expectations)

MCity, i agree that would be an ideal line up of tools to use. What i expect that will happen is the products that are now being developed are the same ones as last year, and the year before. There is BiaB, and it will be released with some really cool new features, and some really cool new content.

Realband will get a couple useful new features and that is it, due to it not being a money maker. I agree with the need to update it, i also posted 10 years ago regarding how it could be money maker if it was untethered and truly updated. I don't agree with RB being totally abandoned there are quite a few users that love it. But i also can't imagine shifting the developers time from a program that creates the revenue stream to one that comes free in the package. Not fiscally reasonable. I think you remember you and I both suggested a few years back rewriting RB or something new on the Ardour platform, much like Mixbus but with BiaB generation capability. Wouldn't that be cool!, I just honestly don't think it is going to happen at least in the near future. Again, I don't think it will get a rewrite and be changed drastically. It will continue to go forward very slowly. However, for what it does it is effective.

The plugin is likely to get a few cool updates i would not be surprised at some point if it gets your ask of direct to disk play, i would also not be surprised if it didn't. I am hoping it does as that alone would make it really cool. I would love to see it get "all tracks the same", (Hoping for that in BiaB) and the newer F5 mulitiriff feature BiaB has. I don't expect it will get what you describe as a live arranger. Maybe, but i doubt it. Hopefully, that would be really cool, but again, the focus will be BiaB, it always has been and always will be! Maybe direct to disk this year, live arranger next year.

I would love it if the plugin and RB got the love they deserve. I am not fighting you just being real with you. I think the smart place to put any effort into it for you, myself, or any others should be in helping BiaB become the best it can be. If history proves anything that is where the development progress will be made. There is a short list of long-term bugs that need attention and a few areas that solid improvement could make it even better and more attractive to newer users. Let's see what 2024 brings and then offer some ideas that may be helpful. We can continue keep an eye on the plugin and hopefully it will be developed along the lines you laid out. Best to you Sir MCity.

Thanks Rob, regardless of what happens or doesn't happen I can do things so easy with full creative control just using these 2 scripts, it could even be scripted to work with Ardour (MixBus), all the other mods suggested for Biab/RB/Plugin are for those that can't use Reaper and want to do it all in PG products alone, dragging consolidated wav files into their DAW's.