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BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Matt
If you don't mind, share with us what you are finding to be effective.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Bob, I think this is like swatting flies. You can kill a few, but there are more, and more new ones.
So far I've just been writing an email to the Contact/Abuse links on the offending host sites. My message provides the appropriate statement of ownership and, most important, the URL of the file(s) I want deleted and the URL(s) and user-ids of the subscribers who uploaded it. So far, I've had action within just a few hours. One site was not responsive until I had sent a reply to their form response. I asked for their address to mail a letter, or else a statement why they would not provide that info.
I found the illegal postings, by the way, from Google Alerts. I set a whole bunch of Google Alerts for the name of my publishing company and the name of the CD, as well as my name, and each week, I get new lists of places to check. More flies to swat.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Sad that so much effort has to be used to keep your stuff. Amazing, isn't it?
Glad to hear you are at least getting responses.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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I think the vast majority of working musicians would be helped more than harmed by the free copying and distribution of their music. This is because the music business has come full circle. I will explain.
But first, let me say that the copyright holder of intellectual property such as music, video, or writing has the sole right to decide whether his property can be freely distributed. Just because modern technology makes it EASY to copy and distribute other people's stuff doesn't mean it's RIGHT to do so.
Once was a time when musicians were paid only when they played, b/c recording media did not exist. (Having students was a way to supplement the performance income. And still is.) But when recording media became mass-producible and affordable, that all changed. Selling units was the way to make money, if not a fortune. Going on a tour and gigging was a way to promote album sales. Sure, money was made from the live gate, but the big money was in selling units.
But the digital revolution changed all that. The business model has changed. Selling 100,00 units, let alone a million, is hard. And the nine cents a tune the artist makes on his CD isn't exactly the path to great riches. Nowadays, most artists make their biggest money on tours doing concerts. Instead of the gigs promoting the recordings, the recorded stuff promotes the tours! In other words, musicians have to PERFORM again to get paid. So, the more people who hear your stuff -- by getting it free from friends or P2P file-sharing sites -- the more people there will be who may want to see you perform live.
But I understand that that that's not going to help the studio musician who makes recorded music for a living and doesn't perform live much.
Last edited by Schnazola; 03/04/10 03:36 PM.
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tired
(edited)
Last edited by rharv; 03/05/10 05:50 AM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Yes, permission is the key, certainly. That was the point I tried to convey in my second graph.
For some successful recording artists, every illegal download of their music is a lost sale. I don't blame them for coming after copyright infringers with both barrels. That's not the case for the vast majority of musicians, however. For most independent, relatively unknown producers, a "shared" tune (I use the term shared guardedly) is not a lost sale, inasmuch as almost no one is willing to pay a buck (or even less) for an unknown artist's work after listening to a 30-second snip of a tune. What it is is increased exposure, exposure that could one day turn viral and transform an unknown artist into a national or global phenomenon.
And just to reinforce what I'm saying, my opinion on this is not that eccentric. Mike Portnoy of Dream Theater, for example, has said he doesn't care if people copy and share DT's stuff. (Although, I must admit, they did go after sites that released bootlegs of their last album before the official release date.) And DT is not exactly small-time.
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Schnaz,
I understand your point, however, I think your arithmetic is wrong. And, since that is incorrect, your entire thesis falls apart.
The cost of running a live show, whether a full blown national tour, or a single one night stand, Superstar performer or local artist, is very expensive, especially if you want to draw the crowds who are going to pay $25 to get in. The cost of that show in time, effort, paying crew, rental of the venue, and the other overhead costs that go along with it (advertising, free give aways, promos, etc) all leave very little financial wiggle room. Alan Jackson said it best when he sung '...half the time I'm playing for free!' in 'Neon Rainbow.'
Concerts are in support of album sales, not the other way around. Hence, if you give away the album sales via digital copy or any other means, then you will not have the finances to run the shows.
My further two cents.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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That's funny. When the Recording Comanies respond to the act's questions regarding where the Royalty Fees went, the act is always told that they are expected to make their money offa the live performances and that the recording sales are what is used to *advertise* the act, guaranteeing the performance draw. And the reason for all the confusion is that the recording companies are run by weasels. Distribution has changed. The old "station wagon that pulls up in the night" that Frank Zappa used to write about, the one where all the pressings that *weren't* counted by the royalties counter mechanism was filled with, does not have the same impact on profits for the weasels that it once had. Internet distribution is a daily changing aspect at this point in time, I expect there to be some technological solutions found -- that actually work and don't alienate the customers nor the artists -- and in the meantime things like what Matt is doing may just be working towards the elegant solution in some fashion that may not stand out at the moment, but it will. Now let's talk CD Royalty Fees. Let's say that you are the "Artist" and that you both wrote and performed all songs on a ten song CD. (Using the "ten songs" just to make the arithmetic easy here.) That CD is sold for a $14.95US "street price". Reality of sales rearing its head, the discount stores, with their larger buying power, are selling your CD for $9.95. **Check the rider in your Recording Contract for the part where it stipulates that you do NOT get any royalties for any *discount* sales. see, "recording company weasels" ** Now, for those CDs that *are* sold at full retail price, the ones in which you are to receive your royalty fees, guess what the rate is? You will make about 14 cents per song per sale. 10 songs, in which you both wrote AND performed, would net you $1.40 per CD. So where does the rest of the $14.95 full retail pop go? About 40% to one half goes to the retailer. And the rest goes to the recording company. Now take a look at how much of Matt's CD sales money goes -- directly to Matt... One of the most common complaints I see around the web is that one where people complain about the recording companies signing younger and younger artists. The reason for that is the same as the reason that the countries of the world draft people of a certain young age. They are "malleable" -- they are somewhat "gullible" -- and if they tried to draft someone my age, I'd tell 'em to go to hell.  --Mac
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To play the devil's advocate in this discussion, I will pretend to be a musician with a confession to make.
"I am an underpaid musician, and often I am guilty of downloading tunes (without paying) for the purpose of learning a song. For example, I'm playing a benefit this weekend, filling in for a musician who is recovering from heart surgery complications (a severe infection), and one of the tunes is a song I had never heard before. At the first rehearsal, the vocalist presented a complete set of lyrics , but the changes were lacking, so I downloaded the tune for learning purposes. In addition, to make the next rehearsal go better than the 1st (I hate disorganized rehearsals), I inputted the changes into Biab and made a desktop video (music playing while I moved the cursor in Biab) so the other musicians could see the chord changes as the tune progressed in the video. Each musician also got a print out of the Biab chart as well as a copy of the video which had the tune embedded in it. So, in essence, I not only violated copyright law, but I also did it big time in Aces.
However, I do not want this tune in collection of recordings. As a matter of fact, I really don't like the song even though it was nominated for a Grammy, and, after this gig, I will be happy if I never have to play it again. You can rest assured Matt, this tune did not come from your Cd, unless you are into Grammy nominated Power Pop covers. Nevertheless, I confess it is stealing... Oh me, oh my, oh me, oh my, am I the only musician guilty of this crime?"
______________
Legal Note: If you are a Fox or RIAA agent reading this message, please realize I am only quoting a dead musician from some time ago.
JBlatz
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Mac,
SInce I do not pay royalties, nor do I have a contract, I may be wrong. I can only pass on what I have heard from others who do have those things, and not too many of them, either. So, my base for the understanding of this is limited, and I will admit that.
I think we all can agree that the recording labels are 'corporate weasels' and take the lion's share of any profits. I think we all also can agree that theft of a song is wrong, and using it for the purposes listed above is wrong.
The problem still exists, and I know of no way around it.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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*It depends upon *where* you downloaded the song in order to learn it.
For example, Youtube is supposed to have an agreement with RIAA in which they pay for licensing. So that's covered for the webstreaming anyway.
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Matt,
Good luck in getting it taken care of Matt. It has to suck to put all of the time, effort and money into creating something and have people steal it.
Bob
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Quote:
I think your arithmetic is wrong. And, since that is incorrect, your entire thesis falls apart.
My math is not wrong, and I invite you to do a bit of research to prove that. Your implication that the expenses of putting on shows negates the earnings from them is simply unsupported by the facts.
The major artists of today (e.g., Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Black Eyed Peas, to name a few) are pulling in at least $100,000 AFTER EXPENSES per arena show they play on tour. If I am wrong about that, it's because it's WAY MORE than $100K, not less. Compared to the profit made from album sales, which has been in steady decline for some time, that is a lot of money. A 20-show tour would yield much more than most of those artists make from album sales and legal downloads. For middling artists with modest financial success, doing live shows is the only way to make money, since unit sales are abysmal.
You cited an Alan Jackson quote about playing for free. Alan Jackson earns about $340K per show. So, he MAY FEEL at times that he's playing for free, but he's not. (And he's not nearly the best compensated artist out there.*)
It's also inaccurate to suggest tickets sell for $25 bucks a pop. Perhaps your knowledge of this subject is limitted to that of local bands/artists with local followings, but the top artists in pop music are pulling in HUNDREDS of dollars per ticket. I encourage you to conduct an ebay search for “Black Eyed Peas tickets” and note the prices for modest seats.
Further, there is money made from merchandising, which actually accounts for a large portion of artists' earnings at live shows, about $3-4 a head (net) on average, which in a big arena can account for another $30-60k earned.
*****************************************
*The list below is based on data provided by concert promoters and venue managers to the trade publication Pollstar.
Paul McCartney: $2.2 million
Bruce Springsteen and The E Street Band: $1.13 million
George Strait: $846,000
Neil Diamond: $823,000
Aerosmith: $755,000
Shakira: $690,000
Creed: $423,000
Rush: $415,000
Tom Petty And The Heartbreakers: $382,000
Luther Vandross: $363,000
Alan Jackson: $340,000
No Doubt: $325,000
Lord Of The Dance: $308,000
Nelly: $301,000
Enrique Iglesias: $297,000
Toby Keith: $297,000
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Just curious, what does the dollar value in your post represent? Charge per show? Profits from a tour?
It wasn't clarified in your post.
Would also ask if the 'profit after cost' is the profit of the tour after venue expenses? I could see that needing to be in the 100k range. Or is it the profit after tour group pays all costs, like paying 75 people a weeks wages, the shipping for the show, etc. I know budgets can be displayed in very different ways. <grin>
Just asking if you thought about that in the research.. honestly interested.
I remember when you could get Maynard Ferguson and his 13 piece band for under five grand if you were in the right place (tour wise) at the right time. They'd fill an empty night for that.
That was back when venues were looking for artists, not vice versa.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Here is a fascinating white paper on the effect of file sharing on album sales. Section II.C. is very germane -- and short. The abstract is even shorter.
Last edited by Schnazola; 03/08/10 02:19 PM.
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Even though this discussion seems to have petered out, I'd like to add this anecdote.
A buddy of mine was in Key West and encountered a band named The Blues Vipers of Brooklyn. (They actually ARE from Brooklyn, NY, and play a few regular gigs a week in clubs there.) They play a lot of early jazz stuff, some blues, and some swing. The novelty of the band is the drummer-percussionist, who plays the washboard. They are locally quite popular, and they get a lot of specialty gigs, and doing weddings is not beneath them. They are good musicians, but it's unsophisticated stuff, nothing that comes anywhere near the sophistication and complexity of, say, Matt Finley's BrazJazz stuff.
Anyway, my buddy bought all their CDs and he -- EGAD! -- made copies of two of them for me. After giving them a listen, it occurred to me that my folks, who live in a hoity-toity over-55 community, would really dig them. After dinner one evening, we listened to the CDs, and I mentioned that the band is available for concerts. My dad said he would give the CDs to the entertainment committee of the community. They are now negotiating a $5000 concert date with the Vipers.
Even after expenses, how many units would the Vipers have to sell to make that kind of money?
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More than a pittance. Vipers, hmm.. do they do Fang Me?
We are into humour with a bite...better take some anticdote..
I think I can go toity, but I'm not cool enough for hoity part.
Take my wife now, please.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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