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I am working on a project that involves a trumpet player and I want to learn a little on how to convey the sound I am looking for. The question I have is how can I communicate with the trumpter to get more of a punch sound in certain points of the measure? I suppose the term in BIAB would be "Shot." The sound style would be in the vain of BST's, "Spinning Wheel." However, the approach the trumpeter is using can be likened to Chicago's, "No Tell Lover." His mellow sound is good in the right areas. But, his sound just lays like a wet rag over the "shots."
I know we have experienced horn players out there. If you can share some of the lingo specific to the trumpet that would help me to guide him to what I am looking for. The only time he picks up his horn is twice a week when we meet. Is the sound I am looking for too hard to pull off? Being a guitarist, I don't know the dynamics of the trumpet and the degree of difficulty it is to achieve those nice tight punches the arrangement calls for.
Thanks,
RickeG
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use the musical sign that looks like a tepee, over the note. That means the note is supposed to get more punch to it.
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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What he's telling you about is properly called, "Accents" in musical terminology.
Shortened term for "accentuating" the note.
The caret above a note denotes the Accent.
With wind instruments, there is another accent symbol, which looks like the dash sign - above or below a notehead. This one is a "Breath Accent" -- which is done by applying more air pressure without any tonguing.
The caret accent symbol is the better choice for the Accents you are trying to describe from those examples.
--Mac
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Or even a staccato heavy accent - a caret with a dot inside it.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I think the real problem here may rest with your trumpet player more than your notation.
I say that because if a more experienced trumpet player were in your band and you gave the description you gave here in your post, it should have been very clear what was wanted. And the experienced player might have taken their pencil, jotted in a few accents on the sheet as a memory jog -- and then nailed the notes as requested.
Experienced players don't show up to my rehearsals without a pencil.
Not if they want to show up at the *next* rehearsal anyway...
--Mac
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Mac is right on the money.......Pencil, eraser, whiteout. Don't forget yer mutes...Valve Oil, Thermos (Hey, Trumpet players get mighty thirsty on the Bandstand, hahaha)!
As far as terms go, trumpet players do have special terms for different articulations>
Doit> Play the note and rip up a half octave or more.
Shake>In classical parlance, it would be a trill. Commercial players (Jazz, Big Band, Rock) Also call it a trill, or shake. Unlike moving valves (Classical) it is done by moving the tongue up and down. Listen to Maynard Ferguson, Bill Chase, or Doc Severinson and you will get the idea.
Cap>There are many terms for this one. Basically, it means play the note short with an accent.
Half Valve>Play the note with the valves half way down, moving up or down.
If you want to get a better idea of how trumpet and trombone articulations work, check out any chart by Sammy Nestico, and then get the audio files of these charts played by any of the great big bands>Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Woody Herman, Stan Kenton, Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Rob McConnell, etc.
PM me if you want to see one of these parts.
Hope this helps,
Ed
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sforzando
A strong sudden accent.
Noted as sfz. Used in classical and British Brass Band Scores. It's beyond fff.
I have at least 30 of those this session. Hoorah. On the downside 1/2 the scores have 7 and backwards 7 so the conventional rests are confusing.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Sforzando is typically reserved for when the entire ensemble is involved.
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Well if I'm reading the 2nd Baritone part and I am the onliest 2nd baritone the chart is right?
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Thanks Gents! Notating was not as much the problem as skill here. Although the notation does show the notes to be accented, there is something not being translated from the brain to the mouth. When I ask him about the accents written on the score. He knows what they are. He is just not catching it with his mouth.
Mac, if you do not mind explaining to a guitar player so he can tell the trumpeter how to execute the accent would be helpful. I played hispart on my guitar. The sax guys sound off their part, etc. If I understand you properly he needs to ""Breath Accent" -- which is done by applying more air pressure without any tonguing" does that mean he pushes more air (visually puffing cheeks) while moving his tongue out of the way?
Unfortunately, he does not carry a pencil with him. But, in a church setting where all are volunteers, you have to keep an open mind of what people bring and how much time they actually spend on their instrument on their own. I am trying to learn how to communicate what he is to do that accomplishes the desired sound. Being he is the only trumpeter there, I do not have anyone to ask at our rehearsals. And the dilemma is we have a couple of good sax players that nail the part. But, without that trumpet blasting the top part it loses the feel.
Thanks again, trumpters, for trying to help me help him play the part. I appreciate any mechanical advice as to what to tell him to achieve that part.
RickeG
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Just play him a recording of the sound you are looking for. If he can't play it after that, notation is not going to help here.
If you really want a horn section to sound like Blood, Sweat & Tears in your church, that's some hip church.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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As mentioned before, I think that playing a song that contains what you’re looking for is a good idea.
You could also use the terms “harder articulation” and “softer articulation” to describe a desired effect.
Shots can be tough to play. You need to move a lot of air through the horn in a very short period of time (requires a lot of diaphragm support) and you have to control the flow of air out of your mouth (requires a lot of embouchure support). You also have to get the tongue out of the way quickly. Some guys seem to be naturals at it but I think that it takes a lot of practice.
I think that it would be tough for a trumpeter to work up his/her chops enough to “blast the top part” over a band when they only practice at rehearsals. Again, some guys are naturals but I think that you’ll have to use your judgment as to whether your horn player can pull it off.
Best regards. (Hope I didn't say anything wrong.)
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Yep, cliche as it may sound, a good attack means having the diaphragm set before the note is called for. A lot of push from the stomach muscles (lower abdomen) to get the burst of air.
If the saxes are getting it right, have them do it a couple times so the trumpet player hears it done correctly, maybe he can instinctively match it.
That has worked often enough..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Nothing I love better than making a baritone or Euphonium sing. My range in voice too. But I'm going to learn the trombone, bought one, just need to find the time. OTOH, I bought an accordion so I'm kinda torn between the acoustic piano, the keyboards, the accordion, the Euph, the Bari and the Bone. And singing. Too many things and not enough time....
It's all good.
John Conley
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If he's only playing twice a week with no practice in between, it's likely he simply doesn't have the chops for it. Insufficient muscle tone in the embouchure.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Quote:
Mac, if you do not mind explaining to a guitar player so he can tell the trumpeter how to execute the accent would be helpful.
Tell him that when he gets to that note, he has to push like he's takin' a crap.
That gets the all-important diaphragm muscles involved.
It is the air velocity that does the breath accent, and yields the higher notes, too. If he's pushin' the horn into his face to get to the higher notes, that ain't the way its done, son.
Then send him home to practice same, for it likely won't come in one session.
And situps.
if ya wanna play the Trumpet and be somebody at it, ya gotta do those situps.
I still try to do 50 every mornin'. Okay, every other mornin' or so now...
--Mac
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Quote:
Unfortunately, he does not carry a pencil with him. But, in a church setting where all are volunteers, you have to keep an open mind of what people bring and how much time they actually spend on their instrument on their own. I am trying to learn how to communicate what he is to do that accomplishes the desired sound. Being he is the only trumpeter there, I do not have anyone to ask at our rehearsals. And the dilemma is we have a couple of good sax players that nail the part. But, without that trumpet blasting the top part it loses the feel.
Be prepared to accept the idea that it just ain't gonna happen, then, which will be a pleasant surprise if what I typed up there does indeed get heeded -- and practiced. Still, expect it to take some time to develop.
--Mac
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Fake until you make it. Dr. Hank, (aka Dr. Henry Meredith, my horn guru.)
Google him. We were doing some piece by Handel this week and he pulled out a and horn and blew us all way, improv, notes and stuff all over, you just shake your head. No valves, no holes, just a hand or with a regimental trumpet just the straight thing..amazing.
Now 5,000 mostly brass instruments in his house...well. a period harpsichord, and we are doing a Civil War piece, the Fireman's Polka, and he has a $30,000 old fireman's gold trumpet...you yell in it. I'm doing the yelling...
Anyone who gets a few hours to sit with him is going to get a Master Class in anything. He showed me how he went and made a 1600's period horn 2 years ago, a bunch pieces of metal whacked together and soldered. Then he played along ...I don't get half of it.
But it's great fun. He and I spend 2 to 3 hours a week together, I've learned more horn theory and stuff than most people ever get. The only thing is he's way crazy about supplements and alternative medicine and now he's converted me because nothing my docs are doing is working.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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If I may, I have 2 suggestions that will REALLY help your trumpet player get those parts and develop his upper register, along with endurance and control to boot. WITHOUT a lot of practice time......
1. He needs to develop the "Wedge" breathing technique. Maynard Ferguson learned about it from reading a book called "The Science of Breath". It is a book on Hatha Yoga breathing. It is available free on the internet. Also, he can go to the website "Stars teach music" and for around $10 he can learn it from Roger Ingram, one of Bobby Shew's students and formally lead trumpet with Mr. Ferguson. He explains it in detail. Roger Ingram and Frank Greene both have great books discussing every aspect of upper register control, breathing, embouchure development, etc.
The upper register of a brass instrument is really about 3 things>Airspeed (Fast), Apature position, and a mental "singing" concept of the sound you want BEFORE you play a note. Once you have those ducks in a row, you can just play melodies, concentrating on playing with as much relaxation and ease as possible. Play "Mary had a little Lamb". Rest and then play it a 4th or 5th up. If it still sounds great, continue. If your compression and mental game aren't together, rest.....sing it, then try again. Rest often. Repeat the next day. In a year or so you can expand your Usable range by as much as an octave....no easy feat!!!! This is an alternative to the traditional study methods (Arban, Clark, Schlossberg, Thieke, Irons, etc)
2. Head on over to the Warburton Mouthpiece website. They have a new tool that has really changed the way pro trumpet players as well as students are practicing. They have a product called P.E.T.E., basically it's just a hunk of metal that you insert into your mouth and then the lips grab it and hold it. Far different than the "Pencil" exercise that some use. Results are fantastic. It will not replace a well rounded practice routine. BUT....if you are only playing a couple times a week and don't have the practice time, it will do wonders. Just tell him NOT to overdo it, as I did when I first got it and then couldn't play for 2 days!!!
Ed
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Matt, actually the tune is a Ron Kenoly tune called, "Lift Him Up." We do a lot of Ron Kenoly's material because it has a lot of vitality to it. If you like a good trumpet solo check out the tune, "Resound in Praise." I know the sax guy is Justo Almer... and the bassist is Abraham Labriolo. Both are considered the top shelf in their individual craft. I don't know the trumpet player however. That is how it goes on a lot of Ron's bands; best musicians... annonymous names.
I just thought if I could help the guy stretch his limits a bit it would really be an encouragement to him.
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