over a looong time ive read various posts about odd time sigs. and it seems to me that this is a 'big hot button' for some users. and its cropped up recently again. (NOTE>>>i'm not trying to offend anyone...just as an outside observer i'm wondering if solutions can be found that keep everyone happy). thus maybe an open discussion is needed as to ways to keep everyone happy....cos i like a happy world. can compromises be reached ??
so i'll start things off with my 2 cents fwiw and what some might deem worthless...lol....and maybe i'll get egg on my face.. but so be it.
i keep on asking myself the question what can do pg re this issue ? and why does this issue keep on coming up in the user community ? and why do odd time sigs and their handling in bb irk some users ??
i keep on coming up with the same answer... ive found with pg that if they can do something at the codeing level...they will...in order to keep users happy. the various features implemented in bb over the years are testament to that....all driven by various user input. BUT (as happens daily in various industries)...sometimes what users want..though simple looking on the surface from a user viewpoint might actually be darn difficult to implement at the technical level. we had exactly the problem in tech industry...ie what seemed quote from a ceo 'doable in five minutes'...actually couldnt be done without a huge re-write of code. my ceo never troubled me again once i showed him the manpower/budget needed...lol.
in summary, and i dont know the internal codeing of bb... but i suspect from the pg coders perspectives that the 'devils in the coding implementation details'. like we used to get in industry. drove our users nuts...till we explained why... then it was cups of tea for everyone...and peace once again came about in the valley.
in summary i suspect if pg could make things easier re odd time sigs i'm sure they would have done it. lets be fair for a moment. yes i get my irksome moments with bb...BUT...then i remind myself of the big picture. ie...its remarkable how far pg have brought bb over the years. its unique in the market. as ive said before the only way to appreciate bb (or rb)... is for someone to take tech courses in C++, win api's, dsp programming and lets throw in asm programming too. in summary this stuff isnt trivial.
so...if its difficult for pg to solve users hot buttons re odd time sigs what to do ?? so lets have a discussion.
a time sig is basically two values...the numerator and the denominator i believe ? eg 6/8. so how about these ideas...??
1..pg include in bb various different 'odd time sig templates'... one for each odd time sig with arrange examples. maybe an expansion of the current styles examples/demos ? 2..when a user wants to change the standard time sig in a song to an odd time sig...a hotkey is presssed... and user selects a template related to the odd time sig... PLUS how many bars. and voila...even though the base time sig shows maybe as 4/4 in actual fact each bar will be shown to be visually different so as to avoid confusion. maybe its a question of visually adding more fancy graphics to each bar ? sooo a bar in 12/8 (eg _SWANK) looks visually different than a straight 4/4 ?
if anyone says i'm full of it...please offer a better solution cos i cant think of any without probably involving lots of programming. yes in some respects its a 'fake workaround'.. but will it assuage some users frustrations ?? maybe also have song examples/vids that explain the 'fake workaround' ?? would this be usefull to new users ?? sometimes due to limitations of the technology one just has to make compromises.
and please dont jump all over me as i'm just putting it out there for discussion. for example lets take 12/8 _SWANK style.. visually in the bar if you listen to the demo as i did with the template idea you would see in one bar...
1 2 123 <<< visually rhythm accents for 12/8 within the standard paradigm versus 1 2 3 4 for 4/4.
would the template idea make things clearer for new users ?
have at me...throw rotten eggs...i can take it. in summary i'm suggesting approaching the issue from a different angle useing some sort of graphics in a bar to delineate say 12/8 or another odd time sig versus straight 2/4 or 4/4 or 3/4 etc etc.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/25/2411:31 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
RB is light years ahead of BiaB in this aspect, just sayin' There's a working Delphi example in house .. RB even uses BiaB generating engines, so it can be done. Not sure why it hasn't. Then again I always worry about a slow merger of RB & BiaB .. I like the workflow in RB, myself, so resist it becoming more like BiaB
Went and pulled up a SEQ file as an example below Details are in the picture, but it is drums correctly rendered in 7/4 in RB with no 'gimmicks', just rendered. 5 or 6 tracks in this song were rendered in 7/4 without issue pics or it didn't happen, right?
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
yes rb will do things that bb cant as you and i often point out. sometimes i feel you and i and some others are the flag wavers as to rb capabilities....lol.
but sadly i feel even if rb was the best thing since sliced bread that some users want it all done in bb...because they just dont want to learn another daw. thus they miss out on some neat rb features and tricks.
this is why i started in the tips forum a thread attempting to show its not rb versus a users fav daw they are used to but creating a powerhouse song creation solution useing both their fav daw 'and' rb...ie plusses of each. i would love it if you could contribute to that thread as you must have some neat tricks of your own useing rb... so feel free to do so.
i feel that actually a lets call it 'advanced features of rb' video is badly needed... as well as a comparison chart on the pg site showing the features that rb has viz bb. both the vid and chart might help new users.
i didnt mention rb re time sigs in this thread because i just didnt want to get jumped on like a couple of times in the past. it irks me frankly. so i kept it strictly bb. between you and i it still baffles me why some users call rb c**p frankly. particularly with the new features in 2024 rb. but each to his own i guess.
ps...if you notice in tips forum is another rb thread re interesting vst plugins ive tested in rb. many have cranked me up big time. the aim being to find ones that will run on modest pc processors and not need threadrippers and xeons etc..and pc's costing a small mortgage...lol.
jeff was good enough to let me include the list of vst's he uses... AND i would really like it if you allowed me to list the plugins you use in rb. the aim being to help new users. so feel free to add to the vst // vsti list etc etc i started in tips forum. imho if you cant do a hit record with the plugins ive listed so far in conjunction with the pg dx plugins one wont with anything. there are some amazeing freebies out there...check out the list ive tested so far. (more to come.)
great respect and happiness.
om
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
The end result of above song. Only lead guitar and horns are played; drums, bass, keys, funk rhythm guitar all generated in 7/4 .. if it was wanted by more people I suspect it would be included in BiaB eventually http://www.masteringmatters.com/stuff/Count_Me_Out.mp3
/I'm just glad to have RB's ability to accomplish this
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
Often, I'll consider the numbered 'slots' in the matrix cells instead of bars.
So for 5/4 I'll man the first cell 3 beats, and the second 2 (or vice versa). Then the 2 cells equal one bar of music. Same for the next two cells and so on.
The advantage here is you can put a chord on any of the 5 beats in the bar of music. The disadvantage is that it won't work well if you want to export notation.
I don't know if it's possible for PG to change it and still remain back compatible. I commend PG for the back compatibility, and if it means I need a few work-around methods, it's OK with me.
excellent post. what i'm basically suggesting is an updated bar graphic so users have a visual guide showing the 'cels' (useing additional vertical lines ?) and how the cel divisions visually change depending on chosen odd time sig. ie a picture is worth a thousand words kinda idea.
thanks for your comments. appreciate any other ideas you have. cos the aim of this thread is to explore ways to keep users of odd time sigs happy without a major rewrite of bb code. maybe its easy to do the updated cel graphics ? only pg can answer that.
given your in depth skills i'm sure users new to rb would find very usefull a vid covering such rb aspects as how to..
1..mix different tempos in one song.
eg lets say 7/4 morphing into another different tempo then back to 7/4 kind of idea. and then another tempo change for the solos and another for the coda ? or some advanced ways to do changeing jazz tempos in a jazz song. at various time points. i am not a jazz expert...but some users really into the jazz genre might find this very usefull.... includeing an example song showing 'freeform' and 'improv.' ie...'how to do a jazz song in rb with varying tempos' kind of idea. because there are many pg users into the jazz genre. and pg content offers lots of different jazz styles.
2..use of fractional tempos in above in conjunction with pg content.
3..other advanced ways of doing neat tricks in rb.
i'm lousy at doing vids and also vision impaired even though the surgeons have done a great job recently improving my vision which i'm obviously ecstatic about. so if you could do a you tube vid showing creating a mixed tempo song ...i'm sure people would find it usefull. ie real world case including also fractional tempos.
as you and i know rb has some very interesting tricks up its sleeve. but its sad that often new users dont dig into them and thus miss some very usefull features that would help a user create songs. fyi...recently i looked at a very high end but costly daw. though it had some neat tricks itself it didnt have some rb features...and...thus...i would miss certain rb features if i switched to it.
in conclusion it would be grrrreat if you did a vid...and maybe the icing on the cake might be includeing midi tricks due to rb's great strength in midi features. feel free also to include rb tips ive posted in the tips forum. with the rb 2024 update things are getting very exciting... yippee 256 tracks and i can now do vocal comping more easily. poor jeff must get fed up with my suggestions..lol... but its all about makeing rb fantastic for users. imho rb needs just a bit more 'finessing' and thus 'magnifico'.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/26/2407:18 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
Not up to doing video at this point .. would be a ton of work trying to capture all the things involved. With no net gain for me, and my time is better spent elsewhere for now. But for Giggles, the Chord Cells in the above 7/4 song look like below image For the Bars with 3 chords, the chords were on 1, 5 and 7 of the bar .. and the Chord Sheet seems to imply that .. /Edit -Now that I've examined the Chord sheet closer, what exactly is an F5 chord? //OK, Googled it; it's F no 3rd .. ///F5 seems kind of confusing as a label
Last edited by rharv; 07/26/2409:51 PM. Reason: italized question I am interested in knowing
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
In all honesty, time signature is complicated. For instance, what time is Satellite in? Lots of correct answers, but very difficult to structure for generating, and your time signature decision affects the tempo ..and generating success, so 'time' becomes ambiguous
/I'd assume 12/8, but I could definitely see 6/8 or even 4/4 (triplet) working, and in some spots even 5/4 // generating/composing is complex and involves math and effort ///and lots of experimenting!
Last edited by rharv; 07/26/2410:19 PM.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
re your time....yeah i get it. i think pg needs to do vids showing advanced aspects of rb...because there is sooo much to like. and thus might get more users realising various advantages of rb over even expensive daws like the one i looked at recently.
as to odd time sigs...i agree....its a very complex subject, and i wonder how much can be done in programming code to keep users happy. which probably explains why pg programmers chose the current implementation route they did in bb. the added complication being auto accompany versus a straight daw that doesnt have auto accompany. only pg can comment as its their code...but...maybe if pg explained to bb users why they took the route they did... ie the existing paradigm bar wise..maybe it would help users to understand its not a trivial topic as you pointed out. the devils in the programming details i suspect. i also suspect that its easier to program for odd time sigs where all tracks are midi rather than a mix of midi and audio tracks. the audio tracks and track generation introducing another level of complexity as well as time stretching and fractional tempos ?
what i'm getting at...in conclusion...is....one just cant say well 'xyz daw' can do something...so why cant bb ?? because...a traditional daw doesnt have to do what bb does behind the scenes in the background. its a simpler programming environment for daw programmers than bb i would suggest from my tech background. a basic daw paradigm is filling audio buffers before they are needed cos win isnt a real time os. whereas bb has added tasks to do also.
i hope pg read this and comment why users needs for odd time sigs introduces various challenges re low level programming code.
maybe i'm wrong...but sometimes in the past in systems development ive found there are no perfect solutions to make users happy. only sometimes compromises. SO...in this case maybe more detailed bar graphics showing cel divisions per the way notes does things in his mind.? i'm the same...for me on screen improved bar cel graphics would help me also.
ps...fyi...i'm testing out an el cheapo fits in your hand minisforum 140 buck fanless pc currently. has surprised me. win boots fast after some tweaks plus its working grrreat for normal apps like net/office that dont need lots of cpu power. i wouldnt use it for serious music production due to the low single thread count etc. but...imho...the writing is on the wall i reckon and apple had better be carefull much as i like their M serious processors...cos if these little mini pc's get 'souped up' to say 4ghz watch out world. for such a low price. next 5 yrs gonna be interesting.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/27/2406:07 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
I tried making a 7/4 style once, but the problem was that with the 4 major chord divisions in BiaB cell, I couldn't get the chords to fall on the actual beats, except for the first one. That's OK if there is only one chord per measure, but only if there is no more than 1 chord per measure that falls on the first beat of that same bar.
That's why I don't necessarily consider the cells in the BiaB matrix bars or measures.
And as rharv pointed out, sometimes it's difficult to even know what the time signature of a piece.
Is it 12/8 or 4/4, triplet based? Or 6/8? Or 3/4? I could write the same song in each of those, and it would sound the same.
I have written scores of fake e-disks for BiaB https://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake and for many of the songs I've had to get quite creative to get the song to have the right feel, often not using the assigned time signature.
But almost all rhythms can be subdivided into 2 or 3 at the most basic level. 4/4, 6/4, 2/2, etc. breaks down in to 2's. If it's triplet based, it also uses 3s in the subdivisions. So 12/8, 6/8, and 3/4 can be subdivided into 3s. But often, 6/8 is taken in two and the subdivision is in 3s. You can do 6/8 but making two 3 beat cells equal one 6/8 bar. I've even used waltz styles to make 6/8 that way (depending on the song).
It sometimes takes some creative thinking to get things to work out in BiaB, but the more you do it, the easier it gets.
So cells can be assigned 1, 2, 3, or 4, and the subdivisions can be broken down into 2 or 3 (EV or sw). From there, you can get just about anything to fit.
Additionally, how the cells built makes a difference. Example: For a 5/4 song if the cells are 3-2 the feel is different from 2-3. That depends on the song.
Getting further advanced. Sometimes the 3 measure needs to be a tad quicker than the 2. An example of that is Jethro Tull's “Living In The Past”. If the 3 part of the 5 is rushed a bit (or the 2 part dragged) the 5/4 is smoother sounding.
Once you forget about each cell equalling one bar of music, you can expand what BiaB will do quite a bit.
1..are you saying different daws/music apps might implement OTS differently ? 2..lets take the case of two orchestra conductors in different parts of the world leading different orchestras. are you saying each might have their own different implementation of a particular OTS ?
if so this reminds me of how some midi gear manufacturers implemented the midi spec differently....
am i correct or wrong ?
from what your saying it would seem that for OTS there is no common standard ? as there are different interpretations ? this is an aspect i'm confused about. i'm a simple soul that normally does songs in the standard time sigs.
if there is no standard agreed in the world music community re OTS then of course it makes the job exceedingly difficult for pg programmers. cos if they do things one way for one group of musos other muso groups might disagree ? or am i out to lunch ??
i'm just trying to understand and get to the meat of why the OTS features in bb seem to be an issue for some users.... in relation to their daw apps they are used to ? for example if different daw apps interpret OTS differently then this would be a technical quagmire trying to keep all users happy.
please correct me if i'm wrong regarding the above.
finally i'm curious about what you feel needs to be implemented in bb (if technically possible at the programming level) to make some musos that use OTS a lot happier ? so this topic becomes less of an issue for them ? do you feel there is a solution ? if so what do you think would work from a user perspective ?
once again kudos for your post.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/27/2411:50 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
................................ i'm just trying to understand and get to the meat of why the OTS features in bb seem to be an issue for some users.... in relation to their daw apps they are used to ? for example if different daw apps interpret OTS differently then this would be a technical quagmire trying to keep all users happy. ........................................... om
OM, when I use another program to generate a track(s) and the said track(s) is in 6/8, or 5/4, etc, when imported into my DAW they import at 6 beats per measure, 5 beats per measure, etc. When I import a 6/8 or 5/4 track(s) from BiaB they import as 3 beats per measure or 4 beats per measure. That makes them incompatible with my other programs.
As I have said previously if one works entirely in BiaB or imports those other time signatures into a DAW and play instruments along with said BiaB tracks then no problem.
I hope this helps clear this up for you.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
ok...i just ran a series of tests useing mission1 style demo which is 5/4. i set tempo 140. i hope the following is usefull. i genned it in bb and then imported m1 into both reaps and rb....both set to 5/4 time sig....and tempo 140.
heres what i found. 1..both reaps and rb showed correct 5 cel divisions per bar graphically. 2..both reaps and rb...in each the main music started in cel 9. so it looks like reaps and rb are in agreement. BUT.. 3..looking in bb piano roll and tracks window the cel divisions didnt match either rb/reaps. ie... 4 in a bar....even though bb played the demo correctly. but not 5 cels in a bar graphically.
hopefully the above is of interest. please do your own tests useing the demo of missile1 styles demo 5/4. so we are all working with the same 5/4. and tempo. if i get a chance i'll dload the s1 demo and see what the prob might be. ie does s1 set to the same paradigm ie...main body music starting at cel 9 and 5 cel divisions per bar or say 10 if useing zoom ?
you guys tell me if my tests were interesting or am i barking up the wrong tree....? it would seem to me that both bb piano roll and tracks window graphically should reflect the OTS...in this case 5/4....but those views in bb dont. whereas graphically both reaps and rb do as expected.
can i assume that reaps and rb are doing things correctly ? but bb isnt graphically ??
feel free to critique my testing methodology. now i'm gonna go off and create a song titled 'the mission position'...lol.
happiness to all...
om
ps...mario...although i'm an old midiot...you are obviously more capable than i as evinced by your wonderfull soundscapes. in showcase. also i tend to work more with rt's these days to do my songs and dont use midi as extensively as i once did.
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/27/2404:57 PM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
BiaB simply doesn't handle 5/4 as expected .. it squeezes 5 beats in a 4 four bar measure, so I suspect your test was doomed to fail from the git-go, at least historically that has been my result. RB & Reaper are *probably correct (I didn't try your test).
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!
BiaB simply doesn't handle 5/4 as expected .. it squeezes 5 beats in a 4 four bar measure...
Hmm ... When creating a 5/4 song, my BiaB uses two bars to get 5/4; One three beats and one two beats. Maybe that's a difference between BiaB created and imported?
I wrote something in response to a post by Andrew in another thread on a similar subject that might shed some light here, or may elicite a "That's not right" from someone. Andrew didn't reply but was likely focussed on the specific MIDI file, which the OP has sent him.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
Originally Posted by Andrew - PG Music
Band-in-a-Box does support 6/8. From the OP's screenshot, I can see that it says, in Guitar Pro, "quarter note = 204". This is what I'm going on. It should really be "dotted quarter note = 136". Are we in agreement?
Hmm, this probably highlights the problem.
Unless I'm mistaken, the MIDI specification defines set-tempo as microseconds per quarter-note, so I think it does not have offer the dotted-quarter-note option. Do please correct me if I'm wrong.
I think it gets more complicated still in XML, where tempo for the sound element is specified in "quater notes per minute", but there is a separate "tempo type" for the performer. That may be where the dotted-quarter is handled, but I don't actually know and I couldn't quickly find a clear explanation.
There's also another issue. Dotted quarter note implies the rhythm has downbeats on the 1 and 4 of the six, which is pretty usual, but not always true. It can certainly vary with some other time signatures.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .
its only a suspicion but i created mission1 style demo midi in bb. ie..type 0 midi....which i then imported into rb event editor. i noticed lots of bb created control info at front of the test midi type 0 mission mid..
(dont ya love detective work ? just fun to me....lol.)
SOOOO...i am wondering how things would turn out IF after exporting the midi from bb IF THEN one used an event editor to strip out the control header control info before the first note on...IF THEN on import to the daw eg s1... set to 5/4 for the song...all was copacetic. in summary i'm wondering IF its the front end midi header settings that are causeing confusion for the daw ? rb midi monitor is also usefull for analysing data before the first note on.
NOTE...its very important to ensure after import of the 5/4 midi that INDEED the daw is set to 5/4 and NOT 4/4 default. because all is pear shaped otherwise.
i may be totally out to lunch rharv...but i find it TELLING that the piano roll in rb showed the correct 5/4 bar divisions BUT not bb...i guess as you said cos the way 5/4 is handled bar wise in bb per your comment.
mario uses s1 right ?
if i'm correct i would love to know if the mission 5/4 stripped of its front end control info was then imported into s1 set to 5/4...if then all was copacetic in s1 and matched what i got in rb and reaps viz correct cel divisions.
guys...i'm certainly willing to get egg on my face. it comes with the detective work territory...lol....so be it....but it looks like to me that importing from bb to reaps or rb one gets the 5/4 results one expects PROVIDED reaps and rb are set to 5/4 time sig.
NOTE >>> Gordon...you might have hit on something important. is there any chance that different daw vendors/creators might interpret the midi spec differently ?? if so...this might explain things.
this is fun...lol.
ADDENDUM.
downloading s1 trial right now. will report back. had to create an account/palava...sigh.
i would be highly interested if a user with both apple and pc would import into logic pro for example the 5/4 mission midi style from bb... ie do things in logic pro look as expected ?
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/28/2405:42 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
OM " i may be totally out to lunch rharv...but i find it TELLING that the piano roll in rb showed the correct 5/4 bar divisions BUT not bb...i guess as you said cos the way 5/4 is handled bar wise in bb per your comment.
mario uses s1 right ?"
I have used RB for 5/4 and you are correct in that it shows 5 beats per measure. But when I imported it into Studio One Pro it was still in 4/4. And yes I set S1 to 5/4 prior to the import. Note this was a couple of years ago but I doubt it has changed.
Life is short so make sure you spend as much time as possible on the Internet arguing with strangers.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Sorry for a confusing explanation. I'll try to clarify.
The first thing I need to stress is that you must forget about BiaB doing odd time signatures. Actually, it doesn't do time signatures at all, it just has cells that can hold from 1 to 4 beats. That means anything with more than 4 beats per bar can't be done in a single cell. So you need to think about the hacks I described.
Time signatures themselves are flexible. Example: a 6/8 time signature is often taken "in two". Two beats per bar with a triplet pattern on each beat. You could do the same song with a 12/8 meter, but taken "in four". Or a 3/4 time signature. Cut time (2/2 or ala breve) can be thought of as 4/4 time takin "in two". Often when I read cut time music, that's how I approach it.
If 5/4 time had never been invented, you could write the music by alternating 3/4 and 2/4 bars of music. But having a new time signature ever bar would be a PITA. Similarly, alternating 3 beat cells with 2 beat cells will get the job done. Or you could start with 2 followed by 3 - or even 4 and 1. Which sounds best for the song and your chosen style.
Since BiaB can't support more than 4 beats per cell, you can emulate longer than 4 beat time signatures by combining more than one cell in BiaB to make one bar of music.
Frequently when making a Fake e-disk for BiaB I'll come across a 6/4 bar. So I split it up, one cell with 4 beats and the next one with 2, and there is my 6/4 bar of music. It doesn't only apply to odd time signatures. After all, 3/4 is an odd time signature and BiaB does 3/4 fine because it doesn't exceed the 4 beat limit per cell.
When you think about BiaB as cells, instead of bars, it gets very flexible. It depends on the chosen style and what it sounds like. Examples:
Change the beats to 2 (F5), use a "sw" style, and you get a 6/8 bar of music. Leave the cell with 4 beats and it's a 12/8 bar.
A waltz can be half of a 6/8 bar per cell. Especially if the 6/8 is taken in 6.
One 3/4 cell + one 4/4 cell = one 7/4 bar
And so on.
As long as you don't intend on printing notation, these hacks work just fine.
One more point. Time signatures are guides, not arbitrary rules. In doing my fake disks, I have found many songs that were not in the time signature that I would have guessed. It may have sounded like a waltz but was written in 6/8, with each ♪ equaling one beat. Or one I figured was 4/4 was actually written in 2/4.
So think beats and sub beats, try to figure out how to get that to work in BiaB's cells, and most time signatures are available to you.
could you do the following test please ? my analysis of the 5/4 mission demo is there is various header or control info before the midi notes start. you can see it in rb event list or midi monitor.. could you delete this front end control info...set s1 to 5/4 import the bb 5/4 mission demo stripped of the front end control info...and post back if still a prob ?
i tried dloading s1 trial to test but my prob is studio computer is not connected to the net. so i tried the activate offline option...then it wants me to dload another file. lifes too short....i really wish daw trials were as simple as the reaps approach. sorry. mario...s1 certainly has a plethora of nice features...but...they gotta make the trials easier.
btw...again love your sig.
ALL.
correct me if i'm wrong but i read into notes brilliant post there is a 'possibility' that each daw maker might interpret things midi differently ? ie the use of the words ' not arbitrary rules' ?
all i can suggest at this point is a standard 5/4 file is posted on the net that various daw users with different daws can import and test. and see which daws dont agree with each other. for me it looks like rb and reaps agree... rb piano roll is correct. but bb piano roll doesnt match the rb piano roll as to divisions.
to ALL thanks for making this discussion very interesting. maybe pg should test 5/4 and other OTSigs in various daws also.
ADDENDUM.
i decided to activate s1 trial on another pc this time a pc connected to the net. installed s1 after dload. but 'then' i was met with s1 needing some licence file which hadnt been dloaded with the s1 installer. ...i couldnt find such on presonus account. this trial activation is just too complex...giving up....too many steps. ive uninstalled s1 useing the uninstaller in win program files.
i'm a pretty patient guy...but this is too complex a install and verify of s1 trial.
maybe someone else can give s1 a go...ie import the mission 5/4 midi into s1 after stripping it of front end control data.
happiness.
om
Last edited by justanoldmuso; 07/28/2408:38 AM.
my songs....mixed for good earbuds...(fyi..my vocs on all songs..) https://soundcloud.com/alfsongs (90 songs created useing bb/rb) (lots of tips of mine in pg tips forum.)
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 Mac Special Offers Extended Until May 31st!
Good news- we've extended our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® special offers until May 31, 2026!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 is packed with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can transcribe an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PDT on May 31st, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Check out the Band-in-a-Box® for Mac packages page to find the best package for you.
Today's the Last Day of the Band-in-a-Box 2026® for Mac Special!
Order before 11:59pm PDT today (May 15, 2026) to save up to 50% off your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® upgrade and receive a FREE Bonus PAK loaded with great new Add-ons to use with this new version!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac - Special Offers End at 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th, 2026!
Order before 11:59pm PDT on Friday, May 15th and SAVE up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® version 2026 for Mac Upgrade packages... and that's not all! With your version 2026 for Mac purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks... that's 222 NEW RealTracks available with version Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac!
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac® today for as little as $49! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all available purchase options.
Learn more about the Free Bonus PAK and 49-PAK here.
If you have any questions about which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We're here to help!
202 New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2026!
With Band-in-a-Box® 2026, we've released 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 468-488) in a variety of genres—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Funk & World (Sets 468-475):
Our new jazz, funk & blues RealTracks include a groovin’ collection of RealTracks and RealDrums! These include more requested “soul jazz” RealTracks featuring artists Neil Swainson (bass), Charles Treadway (organ), Brent Mason (guitar), and Wes Little (drums). There are new “smooth jazz” styles (4), which include a RealTracks first: muted trumpet, as well as slick new smooth jazz brushes options for drums. Blues lovers will be thrilled—there are more “classic acoustic blues” styles, including guitar (5), bass (4), and drums (10) with blues master Colin Linden, featuring understated and tasty background acoustic soloing, plus brushes drums and acoustic bass. There are also new electric blues RealTracks, including electric blues with PG favorite Johnny Hiland (3) and soulful electric slide guitar from Colin Linden (4). If you love funk & gospel, there are great new options this year, including gospel organ (3) from Charles Treadway, as well as new funk, tango, and rock ’n’ roll drums (3) and bass (1). And for big, bold arrangements, we have uptempo soul horns (4) featuring a three-part hip horn section with options for a full mix or stems of each individual horn — plus an accompanying rhythm section (4) of drums, bass, guitar, and electric piano!
Rock & Pop (Sets 476–482):
Our new rock & pop RealTracks bring a powerful mix of requested favorites, fresh genres, and modern chart-inspired styles! We have more of our popular “Producer Layered Acoustic Guitars (15)” featuring Band-in-a-Box favorite Brent Mason. We’ve continued our much-requested disco styles (10), and added new Celtic guitar (5) with a more basic, accessible approach than our previous Drop-D or DADGAD offerings. There are also highly requested yacht rock styles (17), inspired by the smooth, polished soft-rock sound of the late ’70s and early ’80s — laid-back grooves, silky electric pianos, warm textures, elegant harmonic movement, and pristine production aesthetics. Fans of heavier styles will love our new glam metal (13), capturing the flashy, high-energy sound of ’80s arena-ready guitar rock. We also have a set of rootsy modern-folk rock (18), with a warm, organic sound combining contemporary folk textures and driving acoustic strumming. And we’ve added lots of new modern pop styles (16) — the kinds of sounds you’re hearing on the radio today, featuring exciting new drums, synths, and cutting-edge RealTracks arrangements.
Country, & Americana (Sets 483–488):
Our new country & Americana RealTracks deliver a rich collection of acoustic, electric, and roots-inspired styles! We have new country pop (9) with legendary guitarist Brent Mason. There is also a potpourri (14) of bouzouki, guitars, banjo, and more, perfect for adding texture and character to contemporary acoustic arrangements. We’ve added funky country guitar (5) with PG favorite Brent Mason, along with classic pedal steel styles (5) featuring steel great Doug Jernigan. There are more country songwriter styles (8) that provide intimate, rootsy foundations for storytelling and modern Americana writing. Finally, we have “background soloing” acoustic guitar (12) with Brent Mason — simpler, but still very tasty acoustic lines designed to sit beautifully behind vocals or act as a subtle standalone solo part.
And, if you are looking for more, the 2026 49-PAK (for $49) includes an impressive collection of 20 bonus RealTracks, featuring exciting and inspiring additions to add to your RealTracks library. You'll get new country-rhythm guitar styles from PG Music favorites Johnny Hiland and Brent Mason, along with modern-pop grooves that capture today’s radio-ready sound! There are also new indie-folk styles with guitar, bass, 6-string bass used as a high-chording instrument, acoustic guitar, and banjo. Plus, dedicated "cymbal fills" RealDrums provide an added layer that work very well with low-key folky styles with other percussion.
The 2026 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2026 49-PAK!
2026 Free Bonus PAK & 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Mac®!
With your version 2026 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
Playable RealTracks Set 5
RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
iOS Android Band-in-a-Box® App
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
XPro & Xtra Styles PAK Sets On Sale Now - Until May 15, 2026!
All of our XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAKs are on sale until May 15th, 2026!
It's the perfect time to expand your Band-in-a-Box® style library with XPro and Xtra Styles PAKs. These additional styles for Band-in-a-Box® offer a wide range of genres designed to fit seamlessly into your projects. Each style is professionally arranged and mixed, helping enhance your songs while saving you time.
What are XPro Styles and Xtra Styles PAKs?
XPro Styles PAKs are styles that work with any version (Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition) of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). XPro Styles PAKS 1-10 includes 1,000 styles!
Xtra Styles PAKs are styles that work with the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box® 2025 (or higher). Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 includes 3,700 styles (and 35 MIDI styles)!
The XPro & Xtra Styles PAKs are not included in any Band-in-a-Box® package.
The XPro Styles PAKs 1-10 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
The Xtra Styles PAKs 1-21 are available for only $29 ea (reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the Xtra Styles PAK Bundle for only $199 (reg. $349)! Listen to demos and order now! For Mac or for Windows.
Note: XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 19 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version as they require the RealTracks included in the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
Supercharge your Band-in-a-Box today with XPro Styles PAKs and Xtra Styles PAK Sets!
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
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One of our representatives will be happy to help you on our Live Chat or by email. Our hours of operation are from
6:00AM to 6:00PM PST (GMT -8) Monday thru Friday; 8:00AM to 4:00PM PST (GMT -8) Saturday; Closed Sunday.
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