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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
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OP
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137 |
If I read this right your Clavinova is a sound source for only MIDI, thus audio is being played by something else, Maybe an audio interface, i.e. soundcard? If that is correct there is one thing you can try that may indicate where the problem is and that is use the BiaB Coyote WT for the MIDI sounds (I know they will not sound anywhere as good your your Clavinova) and turn off your Clavinova. Listen carefully. Do you still hear the piano? If yes then the problem is with BiaB; if it is sending MIDI the CoyoteWT will play it. If not then the Clavinova is reading the MIDI file and playing said piano part.
Good luck Thank you for this good idea, Mario D ! I took a little time to test it because I haven't had the same problem for two days. So, to try to reproduce the problem (😊!), I assigned the underlying MIDI of my Utility RealTrack "Guitar 2" to channel 3 (I had previously set it to "Do not re-route"). But still no problem. So, I looked at which MIDI channel the underlying MIDI of the "Utility" tracks is assigned to by default, and since it's channel 1, I assigned the underlying MIDI of my Utility RealTrack "Guitar 2" to channel 1. And there, the problem again: I hear the piano along with the guitar! So, I ran your test :in the MIDI/Audio Drivers Setup window, I abandoned my digital audio interface and I chose Use VSTi/DXi Synth, with the default synth offered by BiaB (Coyote WT). And there: no piano along with the guitar! So the problem could be the Clavinova?! Probably like with the previous issue I reported on the forum ("Band in a Box 2025 stutters when I play MIDI"). But why didn't I have any of these problems with BiaB 2020? Personnally, I'm leaning towards a problem related to the relationship between BiaB 2025, my Windows 10 PC, and my Clavinova, i.e., it could be a problem related to both BiaB 2025 and/or the PC and/or the Clavinova: some sort of incompatibility related to a change in MIDI handling in BiaB 2025 with Windows 10 and/or the Clavinova. So, I'm wondering if I shouldn't abandon the Clavinova as a sound generator and switch to VSTis. Advantage: no need to reconfigure Band in a Box if I take my PC to a studio. But disadvantages: - this requires a lot of PC memory, - I don't know of any multi-instrument VSTi with the sound quality of the Clavinova at a reasonable price (I bought the Garritan JABB3, and I'm very disappointed), - it takes longer to switch between instruments in BiaB (unless I'm mistaken, there are no good pre-mapped multi-instrument VSTi in GM), ... If you have any advice for me regarding VSTi options to equip Band in a Box 2025 (mainly with "jazz" instruments), I'm all ears 😊! Best.
Lazy Bird
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,285
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Hi Lazy Bird,
Since you didn't have this problem with BiaB 2020 I believe the problem is the interaction between BiaB 2025 and the Clavinova. I left out Win 10 because if the issue was between BiaB 2025 and Win 10 all of us with an external sound sources would have the problem. Have you contacted the Yamaha people? Maybe they have some incite on this and/or can help you set up some MIDI configurations that may help.
"- I don't know of any multi-instrument VSTi with the sound quality of the Clavinova at a reasonable price (I bought the Garritan JABB3, and I'm very disappointed)" - That is a correct statement. To get good sounding VSTs it can take a lot of money. I have a lot of great sounding VSTis but I have been using MIDI since the mid 1980's. I also was very disappointed in JABB3.
"unless I'm mistaken, there are no good pre-mapped multi-instrument VSTi in GM" - I agree. There are some good sounding ones (Soundfonts, SF2) but probably not as good sounding as you Clavinova: there are a lot of good free ones so you might want to check them out,Timbres Of Heaven is one of the best GM SF2s. Once you get great sounds it is very hard to go back! And yes it does take some time to set up VSTis, plus you have to do it for every song. Note that you can set up a template but it wouldn't work for every song as each song will require different sounds.
Here is my advice:
1- If you want to go the VST route pick either Kontakt or Sampletank. I have Kontakt and a lot of Native Instruments and third party patches for it: a lot of companies produce patches for it, some are free. It is my go to sound source. I hear SampleTank is also very good but I have no experience with it. Both are expensive but if you are serious about VSTs wait for sales. Kontakt can be purchased at half cost during sales.
2-Since you have solved the problem, at least for now but hopefully forever, stay with your Clavinova.
I hope this makes sense to you.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2020
Posts: 2,766
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I've figured out that this is a bug that specifically affects Utility tracks, and only when using an external MIDI device instead of a VSTi/DXi plugin, and have created a bug report for it. To duplicate it, set BB to use an external MIDI instrument (either hardware MIDI or the Microsoft GS Wavetable synth), then add any RealTrack with notation to a Utility Track.
The workaround for the moment is to use a VSTi/DXi plugin as your default synth, or to avoid using the Utility Tracks.
I work here
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137 |
Hi Lazy Bird,
Since you didn't have this problem with BiaB 2020 I believe the problem is the interaction between BiaB 2025 and the Clavinova. I left out Win 10 because if the issue was between BiaB 2025 and Win 10 all of us with an external sound sources would have the problem. Have you contacted the Yamaha people? Maybe they have some incite on this and/or can help you set up some MIDI configurations that may help.
"- I don't know of any multi-instrument VSTi with the sound quality of the Clavinova at a reasonable price (I bought the Garritan JABB3, and I'm very disappointed)" - That is a correct statement. To get good sounding VSTs it can take a lot of money. I have a lot of great sounding VSTis but I have been using MIDI since the mid 1980's. I also was very disappointed in JABB3.
"unless I'm mistaken, there are no good pre-mapped multi-instrument VSTi in GM" - I agree. There are some good sounding ones (Soundfonts, SF2) but probably not as good sounding as you Clavinova: there are a lot of good free ones so you might want to check them out,Timbres Of Heaven is one of the best GM SF2s. Once you get great sounds it is very hard to go back! And yes it does take some time to set up VSTis, plus you have to do it for every song. Note that you can set up a template but it wouldn't work for every song as each song will require different sounds.
Here is my advice:
1- If you want to go the VST route pick either Kontakt or Sampletank. I have Kontakt and a lot of Native Instruments and third party patches for it: a lot of companies produce patches for it, some are free. It is my go to sound source. I hear SampleTank is also very good but I have no experience with it. Both are expensive but if you are serious about VSTs wait for sales. Kontakt can be purchased at half cost during sales.
2-Since you have solved the problem, at least for now but hopefully forever, stay with your Clavinova.
I hope this makes sense to you. Hello Mario D, Thank you so much for all this advice! I'm going to contact Yamaha in France. I know they have a very competent technician/demonstrator: he already advised me a few years ago, and he should be able to shed some light on how MIDI works in my Clavinova. I'm glad to know that you also find JABB3 disappointing... because that means your Native VSTis are better ;-). If I switch to VSTis, I'm also leaning towards Kontakt/Komplete: it seems to me that Sampletank ages faster and is updated less than Kontakt/Komplete. But, since I'm a bit lazy and afraid of doing more computing than music, I'll probably stick with my current setup for a while longer. Especially since I just read Simon's last post, which suggests that there may be a bug in the way Utility Tracks work: if that's the case and if PG Music fixes the problem, my Clavinova will still be used as a sound generator for some time! Thanks again and take care!
Lazy Bird
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137 |
I've figured out that this is a bug that specifically affects Utility tracks, and only when using an external MIDI device instead of a VSTi/DXi plugin, and have created a bug report for it. To duplicate it, set BB to use an external MIDI instrument (either hardware MIDI or the Microsoft GS Wavetable synth), then add any RealTrack with notation to a Utility Track.
The workaround for the moment is to use a VSTi/DXi plugin as your default synth, or to avoid using the Utility Tracks. Hello Simon, Thank you for continuing to follow up on the issue I raised. Of course, if PG Music finds a bug in the functionality of Utility Tracks and fixes it, I'll be the happiest BiaB 2025 user... because I replaced my BiaB 2020, which I was quite happy with, to have more tracks and thus be able to create backing tracks as close as possible to the arrangements and song forms planned for our concerts! Best.
Lazy Bird
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,285
Veteran
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Veteran
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Thanx Simon for all of your help on this issue.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 137 |
Looks and sounds to me like that is indeed an Audio RT playing Guitar on that soloed track. Why do you feel it is midi? Hello mariaedinson3, You're right, it's definitely a guitar RealTrack we hear on this track. But if you listen closely, you'll also hear the same notes played by a piano. This piano can't be a RealTrack, because I don't think PG Music bothered creating two-instrument RealTracks without saying so :-)! Now, as you know, most RealTracks have a MIDI track associated with them (this is what allows the notes of a RealTrack to be displayed in the notation window), but of course, the velocity of the notes on this underlying MIDI track is set to zero so we can't hear them (if you switch to staff roll mode in the notation window, you'll see that the velocity of the notes displayed is set to zero). In my case, it's the notes on the MIDI track underlying the RealTrack that we hear, even though their velocity is set to zero! And that's my problem ! And why am I sure that it's these notes from the underlying MIDI track that I'm hearing? Quite simply because if I change the MIDI channel associated with the track in question, I'll hear an instrument other than the piano 🙃. In particular, if I orient the underlying MIDI track to MIDI channel 10 (Right-click on the track > Track Setting > MIDI Channel > 10), it's no longer the piano I'm hearing, but the drums 🤣🤣🤣 (but actually, that's not funny)!
Lazy Bird
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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...
In particular, if I orient the underlying MIDI track to MIDI channel 10 (Right-click on the track > Track Setting > MIDI Channel > 10), it's no longer the piano I'm hearing, but the drums 🤣🤣🤣 (but actually, that's not funny)! Absolutely a clue that the source of the 'other' sound is MIDI.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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