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Songwriting
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Joined: Mar 2025
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Hi forum folks! I am guilty of writing and recording songs that plough on verse and chorus with no change or development. More recently, I’ve been thinking about how I can develop the arrangement of a song so that it keeps a listener engaged. I’ve listed some ideas I’ve used to achieve this, but wondered if you have some ideas to contribute as well?- Build up - starting off a song with minimal instruments, then building up e.g. drums and bass come in on verse 2 etc.
- Unpack - the opposite of the above - withdrawing instruments as the song goes through the outro
- Add more instrument layers - particularly for the chorus to provide ‘zing’. ELO we’re good at this back in the day.
- Add backing vocals or harmonies to the chorus or subsequent verses
- Modify the chord progression by adding chord variations e.g. swap major chord to the relative minor; add chord extensions; add quicker chord changes by using new chords from the same key. I first came across this device in a song by English group Stornoway ‘Zorbing’.
- Use a pre-chorus or a bridge to create tension/release or variation respectively
- Add a solo over a verse
- Use a breakdown - a stripped back verse or section, then ‘pow!’ when the full band comes back in.
Any other suggestions or techniques? Andrew
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Songwriting
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Andrew, think you've got the major options captured (maybe add key change/modulation?). But, to me (only), the approach to keeping the listener engaged is way too organic to reduce to techniques. My objective is to create a musical narrative that is complimentary to and on equal footing to the lyrical narrative. The music flexes and BREATHES and leaves the listener wanting to hear what's next, often with a combination of gentle repetition and a subtle new twist.
Sorry, this explanation stinks, and not everyone will agree with it. But it's the beginning of how I think about music in the context of a song with lyrics...
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
StudioCat DAW dual screen
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Songwriting
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Joined: Mar 2025
Posts: 351
Journeyman
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OP
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Joined: Mar 2025
Posts: 351 |
Andrew, think you've got the major options captured (maybe add key change/modulation?). But, to me (only), the approach to keeping the listener engaged is way too organic to reduce to techniques. My objective is to create a musical narrative that is complimentary to and on equal footing to the lyrical narrative. The music flexes and BREATHES and leaves the listener wanting to hear what's next, often with a combination of gentle repetition and a subtle new twist.
Sorry, this explanation stinks, and not everyone will agree with it. But it's the beginning of how I think about music in the context of a song with lyrics... Thanks Ron. I understand what you're saying, and recognise that we all approach things from perspectives or values. For me, I have to think explicitly about this, otherwise I churn out the same, although I have been sometimes surprised by an unthought action resulting in something cool. I heard someone say somewhere that a musical phrase repeated is good familiarity, but 3 or more times lessens the value - particularly if repeated in succession. Similar to your repetition and subtle twist comment. One of my challenges is that I tend to undervalue lyrics (they're just the vehicle for the music, right?), so for me, if there is any connection between the music and lyrics, it is either accidental or by design. I've heard you say before when writing and mixing that you go over repeatedly to 'hear' what the song is saying or what it needs - if I have understood that or expressed it appropriately. Andrew
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Songwriting
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Andrew, yeah, I write songs differently for sure. Since I start with a complete set of lyrics, I perhaps have both limitations and flexibilities that others don't. At any rate, for me it's ALL about the lyrics and constructing a pleasant musical vehicle for the story. Anyway... I almost always storyboard a song in my head, sort of like an old style MTV music video. This will often include detail not explicitly in the lyrics, since the lyrics I get are often intentionally ambiguous. Then I'll find the "center" of the song/story lyrically. Sometimes this is obvious from the lyrics, like the song title, sometimes much less so, and I just make it up. Then I'll try to find a cool way to frame the lyrical center musically and work backwards from there building verses, bridges, solos, etc. All this being said, rock lyrics certainly can be complete gibberish, and there are lots of examples of this. But for people to listen, it STILL has to be cool sounding gibberish. My bottom line is, if I don't enjoy singing it, I don't think others will enjoy listening to it. Best case, others will one day be singing along. 
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
StudioCat DAW dual screen
Presonus Faderport 16
Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Songwriting
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Joined: Apr 2017
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Expert
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2017
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Hi forum folks! I am guilty of writing and recording songs that plough on verse and chorus with no change or development. More recently, I’ve been thinking about how I can develop the arrangement of a song so that it keeps a listener engaged. I’ve listed some ideas I’ve used to achieve this, but wondered if you have some ideas to contribute as well?- Build up - starting off a song with minimal instruments, then building up e.g. drums and bass come in on verse 2 etc.
- Unpack - the opposite of the above - withdrawing instruments as the song goes through the outro
- Add more instrument layers - particularly for the chorus to provide ‘zing’. ELO we’re good at this back in the day.
- Add backing vocals or harmonies to the chorus or subsequent verses
- Modify the chord progression by adding chord variations e.g. swap major chord to the relative minor; add chord extensions; add quicker chord changes by using new chords from the same key. I first came across this device in a song by English group Stornoway ‘Zorbing’.
- Use a pre-chorus or a bridge to create tension/release or variation respectively
- Add a solo over a verse
- Use a breakdown - a stripped back verse or section, then ‘pow!’ when the full band comes back in.
Any other suggestions or techniques? Andrew — The problem with all such formulas is that they are useless. For every one song that may be interesting, there are three million others every month that are not. The 3,000,000 number comes from Spotify—that’s the number of songs that are uploaded monthly. How many are using formulaic—or worse, AI generated formulaic—composition and arranging? Nearly every single one. Your recipe is no better or worse than any other, I suppose, but it’s predictable. Predictable=boring and always has.
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Songwriting
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Those are all good ideas. You can use some, or all, in a particular song, depending on the song. Each song is unique and requires attention to what the song actually needs.
Don't overlook the energy level in the song. I like to have a lower perceived energy feel to the verses and kick into high gear on the choruses and the bridge.
I like to simply call it forward motion. That means that I want some sort of forward movement in every section of the song. Something, no matter how subtle, needs to be different in the song as it moves from section to section. I've even split a verse in two using this method. It might be as subtle as the B3 organ coming in halfway through or it could be where the bass kicks in or some other instrument enters the overall picture. Swap the fill instruments in the verses. Maybe the first verse has guitar fills, make the next one have piano fills. Coming out of a powerful chorus into a sparse section with only the singer and an acoustic guitar followed immediately with a shot of silence, followed by the full band kicking back in...... very impactful. I used a few of these in a recent song called Liar. I'm always thinking as I'm writing, and producing, what can I do that sounds natural and adds interest to the song at this point?
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Yes, these are all good and workable ideas, as long as you do what you think sounds great. I like Mike's 'break the rules' also but perhaps without his pessimism, however accurate. You never know what will be a winner. One of the things I do is add jazz horn and wind parts to songs by singer-songwriters, and I do build layers as we go. I also write instrumental 'hooks' that often become the more memorable parts of the song. Concentrate on the songwriting first, then your performance, and don't be afraid to find specialists who can produce and arrange for you.
In my genre (Brazilian jazz), I tend to write a more energetic opening intro, because I figure you only have a few seconds to catch the listener's interest before they click away. Then your plan of minimal orchestration in the first verse followed by more development later, might have more impact. I rarely 'unpack' at the end if I've built up the energy, but in some genres it can work.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Mar 2025
Posts: 351
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Mar 2025
Posts: 351 |
Hi all!
Thank you for your contributions to this thread! Your responses suggest there are many contexts that influence our songwriting creativity and what we might draw upon, and that my OP was probably shaped by my own.
Andrew
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
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