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Songwriting
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Joined: Mar 2025
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Journeyman
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Joined: Mar 2025
Posts: 774 |
Hi fellow songwriters! At some stage in the future, I might compile an album (in the traditional vinyl or CD sense, albeit in YT or SC playlist) and was wondering what order I would put my songs in, and thought I’d post the question here. If this is not the correct forum group, please let me know and I will repost. Obviously, I am seeking general comment because each artist’s works are different, but thinking generally… - I’d put the ‘banger’ first or second - the first track needs to grab attention
- Second or third track keep momentum going
- Don’t jump around too much in tempo or energy from one song to the next, but also have variety
Can you think of other considerations? What have you found pleasing as a listener and what has irked you? Andrew
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Songwriting
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The one thing that I believe is the most important is have the album at a constant volume. Having to manually turn your stereo/computer/etc volume for each song is a no no in my book. But you probably already knew that.
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Andrew, suspect the joy of listening to albums end-to-end has been diluted by modern realities like streaming and short attention spans. But if I were slotting songs for an album, I would make EVERY song a banger with a quick hook and a snappy ending so that the listener can't wait to get to the next song. Save the most challenging song for the end. By then, the listener will be either invested or checked out. Hopefully the former.
Be forewarned, I'm an unsophisticated dabbler in shallow pop music, and I shamelessly only post songs that I think listeners will enjoy. Furthermore, I have never released an album, nor do I think I ever will. But none of that stops me from having an opinion. So...grain of salt, and all that...
But I think it's very cool you are going to release an album. Much respect.
Mario makes a great point about mastering levels across the tracks.
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
Presonus Studio One
ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM
Presonus Faderport 16
Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Joined: Jul 2000
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In the period during which I was most involved as an arranger and sideman on many records, the 1990s and 2000s, the accepted guidelines included placing the strongest track third.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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In the period during which I was most involved as an arranger and sideman on many records, the 1990s and 2000s, the accepted guidelines included placing the strongest track third. Good move. Take a look at some of the great albums by any of the really famous artists and producers. The winner track was rarely the first track where the needle touch the vinyl. Two or three tracks along the groove, and things got more interesting.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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Joined: Apr 2017
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Expert
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Expert
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Although I consider all such formulae nonsense—especially the 3rd track strongest—I agree that no one is going to sit and listen to a CD waiting for the good stuff. Hit them hard from the start and don’t let up.
Thinking of my favorite 50 or so albums over the last 60 years, not one followed the ‘3rd track’ rule that has never existed in real life. On many, the first cut, others, the first cut of side 2. The last cut on each side was often where you found the gold but most then, it was the 2nd track that was the hit.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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Songwriting
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Joined: Sep 2010
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If you want to keep your listener listening... make them all bangers.  I only wish I knew how to do that myself. 
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Disclaimer: I have released two albums so far, whose sales figures are in the sub-zero range, and that already includes one copy of each I bought myself. Maybe it would be best if you did the exact opposite of what I do. Anyway... - The best/most catchy song first: If a listener stops listening after 30 seconds because it's not her thing, it doesn't matter that a number one hit follows that would sell millions if someone listened that long. - Create a DAW project with all finished songs in a row and listen to the whole thing. - Does the feeling/mood/vibes/whatever changes between songs pleases you?
- Are there two very similar songs right after each other, and are you bored listening to them one after the other?
- Are there songs that create a natural transition? After a slow or quiet song, a song that starts slowly but builds toward the end would be a good transition to a louder song.
- Listen while walking the dog, while driving to visit your beloved mother in law, while you have a dump, while... well, no, better not while having sex.
When you are in different moods, your judgment may also change. - Are there connections between the lyrics of the songs? Does one song depend on the knowledge of another?
TL;DR: My general approach (both for individual songs and complete albums) is to listen until nothing annoys me anymore. Do what YOU like best.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
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The interesting question is, whatever you believe from the past, does the order of songs still apply when you can click on any song?
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2022
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The interesting question is, whatever you believe from the past, does the order of songs still apply when you can click on any song? I just checked on Spotify, and yes, it seems so. Kinda  As can be read everywhere on the internet, statistically speaking, the first and third songs are indeed played more often. But: songs with interesting names are also played more often because people are curious. I have no idea how long each song is played, though. So if you're unknown, like me, song titles are also important.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jan 2015
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Some years back when I was auditioning some Hi-Fi stuff, I took a bunch of CDs for the job.
The guy in the listening room commented "every single track you've used has been the last one on the CD".
I hadn't thought about it, just selected top quality tracks that I liked and felt would do the auditioning justice.
He was right.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11
BIAB2025 Audiophile, a bunch of other software.
Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts
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Here's my 2 cents on the topic.
You should not have ANY fillers on the album.
Back in the day, and I have a lot of albums on my shelf to prove this.... A band had ONE hit song on the album and everything else was mediocre stuff to fill up the space. Often there was nothing really good besides the hit song.
Today, that has been flipped totally on it's head. A typical album release with 10 to 12 songs will end up with easily half or more being released as singles over a period of time. And none of the songs on the album are there simply to fill the space. They are all really good songs. What they refer to as "deep cuts".
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Elvis Costello.
Steely Dan.
The Police.
Just do it like them and you'll be fine.
And I have a stack of Records to prove it
😁
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Songwriting
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Joined: Jul 2000
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I remember planning for an effective musical transition from the last song back to the first. This would be from a record changer repeating or, even better, a cassette player reversing sides.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Slate VSX, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Steely Dan? Huh! You have to come from another planet to write that material. I'm still sure Donald Fagan and Walter Becker come from another galaxy (far, far away).
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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Songwriting
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Expert
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Expert
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As can be read everywhere on the internet, statistically speaking, the first and third songs are indeed played more often. Really/ Let's look at that. I believe that everybody and their AI bots are saying it but there is no data backing that up. I used to work for a company that tracked such things. Where are those statistics? I've not seen any reason to believe they exist. If the ACE/Songview database (ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR), Billboard or AppleMusic released such stats, I could believe that.
BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac
24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP
Digital Performer11, LogicPro, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro64/Notion6 /Overture5
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Songwriting
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As can be read everywhere on the internet, statistically speaking, the first and third songs are indeed played more often. Really/ Let's look at that. I believe that everybody and their AI bots are saying it but there is no data backing that up. I used to work for a company that tracked such things. Where are those statistics? I've not seen any reason to believe they exist. If the ACE/Songview database (ASCAP/BMI/SESAC/GMR), Billboard or AppleMusic released such stats, I could believe that. I've seen countless websites claiming that A&R people listened to the first and third tracks first when they got a new album. Since I started writing music at a time when A&R people had long been gone, and I'm a curious person, I simply looked at my Spotify statistics (if you have a "Spotify for Artists" account, you can see these figures), and as I said above, this was exactly the case for MY two albums, at least. Of course, my two albums are statistically insignificant in the ocean of new releases that appear every day, but I still found it interesting.
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Songwriting
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Joined: Mar 2025
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Thanks all for your comments - interesting insights and thoughts. I forgot to mention upfront that I have no expectations that anyone would listen or that I'd make 1 cent from it. In fact, I would not consider distribution channels - just 'here's an album with my songs on it' as a playlist on YT or SC. Of course, being a child of the 60s, the concept of an album is not as relevant today as it once was. That's a pity.
What's a banger? I know which of my own songs I like, but I have no idea from the very limited listeners I have to distinguish which songs are highly favoured versus just the luck of listeners being in the right place at the right time.
I had wondered whether there was an exercise similar to the User Showcase where BIAB songwriters from the Forum could list/link 10 songs in *their* preferred order of banger-ness, and see whether forum members would swap the order - but it's probably expecting too much for forum members to listen to 10 songs from many forum members and rank them.
Anywho ...
Andrew
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Andrew, don't worry about the banger(s). Just put the songs in an order that makes sense for you. I have listened to thousands of albums and CDs, If I had selected the one I thought was the banger from each, and kept a list of what track it was on at the end I am positive that every track would be listed. The fact is that the so called banger is just a personal choice. YMMV
It takes courage for a man to admit his wife was wrong.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Hi Andrew, Unless your Music Production Manager and Recording Engineer and Sound Director know something about the tracks that we don't, just lay them out in the best way that you feel comfortable. It's your work, you're the boss, do it in any way that gives YOU satisfaction. That's all that really matters 
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Professional & Windows 11, Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Windows Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
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Introducing XPro Styles PAK 10 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 10 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 28 RealTracks and RealDrums!
Few things are certain in life: death, taxes, and a brand spankin’ new XPro Styles PAK! In this, the 10th edition of our XPro Styles PAK series, we’ve got 100 styles coming your way! We have the classic 25 styles each from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, and rounding out this volume's wildcard slot is 25 styles in the Praise & Worship genre! A wide spanning genre, you can find everything from rock, folk, country, and more underneath its umbrella. The included 28 RealTracks and RealDrums can be used with any Band-in-a-Box® 2026 (and higher) package.
Here’s just a small sampling of what you can look forward to in XPro Styles PAK 10: Soft indie folk worship songs, bumpin’ country boogies, gospel praise breaks, hard rockin’ pop, funky disco grooves, smooth Latin jazz pop, bossa nova fusion, western swing, alternative hip-hop, cool country funk, and much more!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 10 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 10 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Introducing Xtra Styles PAK 21 – Now Available for Mac Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher!
Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest Xtra Styles PAK installment—the all new Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher)!
Rejoice, one and all, for Xtra Styles PAK 21 for Band-in-a-Box® is here! We’re serving up 200 brand spankin’ new styles to delight your musical taste buds! The first three courses are the classics you’ve come to know and love, including offerings from the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres, but, not to be outdone, this year’s fourth course is bro country! A wide ranging genre, you can find everything from hip-hop, uptempo outlaw country, hard hitting rock, funk, and even electronica, all with that familiar bro country flair. The dinner bell has been rung, pickup up Xtra Styles PAK 21 today!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Energetic folk rock, raucous train beats, fast country boogies, acid jazz grooves, laid-back funky jams, a bevy of breezy jazz waltzes, calm electro funk, indie synth pop, industrial synth metal, and more bro country than could possibly fit in the back of a pickup truck!
Special offers until December 31st, 2025!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 21 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 21 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 21.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 21 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 21 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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Don’t miss this chance to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box setup—at a great price!
Mac 2025 Special Upgrade Offers Extended Until August 15th!
It's not too late to upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® and save! We've extended our special until August 15, 2025!
We've added many major new features to Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, including advanced AI tools like the amazing BB Stem Splitter and AI Lyrics Generator, as well as VST3 plugin support, and Equalize Temp. Plus, there’s a new one-stop MIDI Patches Picker with over 1,100 MIDI patches to choose from, all neatly categorized by GM numbers. The MultiPicker Library is enhanced with tabs for the SongPicker, MIDI Patch Picker, Chord Builder, AI Lyrics Generator, and Song Titles Browser, and the tabs are organized into logical groups. The Audiophile Edition is enhanced with FLAC files , which are 60% smaller than AIFF files while maintaining identical audio quality, and now ships on a fast 1TB SSD, and much more!
Check out all the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® here:
Purchase your Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac during our special to save up to 50% off your upgrade purchase and receive a FREE BONUS PAK of amazing new Add-ons. These include the 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK, Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana, Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes, MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano, Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7, Playable RealTracks Set 4, RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark, and more!
Upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and add 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and 20 RealStyles, FLAC Files for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks, Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster, MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster, Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8, and RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe.
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs!
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