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I have the musical basis (chords and melody) for a song, but no lyrics. I think the song will be a good one based on what I have musically. I’ve tried a couple of times to start writing the words but after a couple of lines I go ‘Nah’. Usually, once I find a theme to work with, I can get the words happening.
Any ideas about methods to find a theme or lyrics that suits some music? I realise this is a ‘How long is a piece of string?’ type of question, but looking for any ideas of approaches that might help me crack open this nut.
Andrew
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Well, as you know, I get lyrics from my brother. Highly recommended. Ha! But when I write lyrics (or music, for that matter), I usually write "inside out". I'll find a catchy phrase and try to make it sound cool. (I stole this from something Paul Simon said over 50 years ago) This will become the "center" of the song. Then I'll figure out a way to get to the "center" of the song lyrically (or musically). That is, what is the song about? This will become the "theme". It usually goes quickly from there. Honestly, despite your protests, your lyrics are WAY above average, and your songs are always fun to listen to. Some people think good rock lyrics are gibberish anyway. Just putting that out there. 
Last edited by DC Ron; 01/28/26 12:19 AM.
DC Ron
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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They say "write what you know". There's a lot of inspiration that can be taken from your own life or the world around you that can inspire some pretty meaningful lyrics. What emotions or mood does the "sound" you've created strike within you? What are some events in your life that have made you feel a similar way? What are some important things that were said to you during that time? That might be a good place to start!
Cheers,
Ember
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Andrew, Great question. I think that there's no single answer, but please read on. Many (most?) times, the write / composer starts with lyrics and adds a melody that suits. Think: Hal David and Burt Bacharach, or Bernie Taupin and Elton John. On the other hand, think The Bee Gees, where they would compose a melody and then write lyrics to suit. Quote: “The style of writing songs doesn't change at all, really. Melody first, lyrics second." - Robin Gibb" and quote: "They always wrote the music first, then when they'd get together in the studio, they'd play the music and come up with the lyrics on the spot. They never wrote lyrics ahead of time." So if you've got a melody, think hard about what concepts you may have had in mind when you wrote the melody. Use that as an inspiration. Case in point: I wrote the melody to this song before I had any lyrics. I wrote the lyrics to match the melody. If I can do it, you can too Be positive. Good luck!
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Well, as you know, I get lyrics from my brother. Highly recommended. Ha!
But when I write lyrics (or music, for that matter), I usually write "inside out". I'll find a catchy phrase and try to make it sound cool. (I stole this from something Paul Simon said over 50 years ago) This will become the "center" of the song. Then I'll figure out a way to get to the "center" of the song lyrically (or musically). That is, what is the song about? This will become the "theme". It usually goes quickly from there.
Honestly, despite your protests, your lyrics are WAY above average, and your songs are always fun to listen to. Some people think good rock lyrics are gibberish anyway. Just putting that out there. Thank you Ron - and thanks for pumping up my tyres a bit. I’m always using the line that ‘the lyrics are just the vehicle for the music’ so not sure why I’m doubting my mantra on this one. I think it’s because the song *could* be good, so the stakes are a bit higher. Well … I’ve found a centre of sorts and running with that for the time being. Andrew
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They say "write what you know". There's a lot of inspiration that can be taken from your own life or the world around you that can inspire some pretty meaningful lyrics. What emotions or mood does the "sound" you've created strike within you? What are some events in your life that have made you feel a similar way? What are some important things that were said to you during that time? That might be a good place to start! Thanks Ember! While I’ve lived a sheltered life, I have taken a leaf out of your message and got my first draft - based on how I have felt about some situations - and I think it suits the style I am aiming for. It will probably go through some wordsmithing to improve it’s singability (I do most of my melody writing inside BIAB in the editable notation window, then I sing it with guitar and find I introduce stumble changes and emPHAsis on the correct sylLAbles). Andrew
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Andrew, Great question. I think that there's no single answer, but please read on. Many (most?) times, the write / composer starts with lyrics and adds a melody that suits. … So if you've got a melody, think hard about what concepts you may have had in mind when you wrote the melody. Use that as an inspiration. Case in point: I wrote the melody to this song before I had any lyrics. I wrote the lyrics to match the melody. If I can do it, you can too Be positive. Good luck! Thanks Trev! In about 95% of my songs, music comes first, so I am mostly retrofitting lyrics to music. My false starts in this case caused me to reach out and see if others had novel approaches to this same challenge. Today, I sat down and forced myself to write lyrics on a slightly different theme to my false starts, and so far I would rate today’s efforts as ‘plausible’. So I’m on my way! BTW - good song of yours you linked to! Thanks for the encouragement! Andrew
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Hi Andrew, FWIW:
Although I do mostly instrumentals I do have a technique I use for lyrics, and sometimes instrumental leads and bass lines. I strum my guitar and make up some lyrics. If I strike on something that I like I grab my Tascam DR 05 and record it. (You can use whatever you have for recording just have it on and ready to record.) The recording may only be a line or two but it is something you can potentially build into a song.
However other times I will think of a line or two then grab my guitar, find a chord(s) that fit said line and record it.
The main thing is to get it recorded and get the lyrics saved. I place the typed lyrics in my "Unfinished Song" folder on my desktop and I save the recording in my Tascam.
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I write about what I know or think I know, personal experiences, maybe something a friend or family says provides the spark, or maybe I have a line or a title or a topic, but it's almost always the case that a chorus or a verse or a lyric and the rhythm and the melody develop at the same time.
I'm presently trying to write a song with a couple of friends. They suggested a line/title, but finding lyrics and a melody and a song structure, anything, is a challenge for me. Ideas are percolating, but the scenario I can relate to and write about has yet to present itself.
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We much like Ember’s thoughts. Our current song is an example of that.
J&B
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Any ideas about methods to find a theme or lyrics that suits some music? I realise this is a ‘How long is a piece of string?’ type of question, but looking for any ideas of approaches that might help me crack open this nut. An approach that won't help you now, but will in the future: Whenever I hear, read, see, or experience something interesting or unusual, I write it down. Maybe something I watch on TV or YouTube. Or in the news. Or (very often) in real life. Or hear in conversations between people in the bar while I'm drinking my latte. Often a single phrase. A line in a song that sparks my imagination. The possibilities are endless. I take notes on everything. On a piece of paper. Or record it with my cell phone. When I don't have any ideas about what to write, I go through my notes. I always find something that appeals to me at that moment and in my current mood.
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Watch people, listen to what they say, either in person or on TV or the radio, when something strikes a chord with you, write it down. Pull ideas from things that happen in your life and the lives of others around you. Keep a notebook.
In the documentary It All Begins With A Song, there was a writer who had his car broken into. I forget if they stole his guitar and laptop, I think they did, but the thing he said was the biggest hit wasn't the gear, it was his notebook. In the notebook, he had many years worth of song ideas, songs partially written waiting for the spark to finish, and verses and choruses unfinished. It was the most valuable thing to him. To the thief, it was probably tossed in the trash as worthless.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thank you everyone for your suggestions and ideas. A common theme running through this is to be more aware of what is happening around me - things observed, heard, said … and record it down. I used this once in the past (sort of) back when we used to have print media - I would scan the newspaper and note any phrases that I thought were interesting. One idea I’ve just had - based on B.D.’s comment - is to sit down in a busy food court at a local shopping mall and, without being obtrusive, listen and observe to all going on around me and see if ideas or stories emerge. So if you see me post a song in future about ‘what Doris said to Ethel’, you’ll know what’s gone down. Andrew
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Hi, Andrew. You go about songwriting as I do...melody comes first. If it's a hit, it comes easily. But I struggle with words. Well, I'm not a lyricist, I write words. Anyway, I have to wait for the melody to let me know what the title is. Sometimes I know right away, sometimes takes months. My words are conversational. I've had some songs take me up to 20 years to write! In some of those cases, I found someone to write the lyrics or to finish the song. But most important, the words have to feel like the melody. It has to have the mood because the melody fills in the spaces between the letters of the words. I consider my most beautiful song to be "Raindrop Soul" and my best story to be "Far From Home." I think people don't consciously realize how important the melody is and that's what they associate a story with. Lots of times my songs start out so personal that people may not "get" it and I rewrite and rewrite to make them more universal. "Equal!" was like that...took me a year to write because it's my theme song from my life with autism but it's always taken as a feminist theme. It could be, actually. "Just Another Weekend" went through a few rewrites. I thought of all the things I did on weekends and it was, of course, conversational. I usually have a formula for most things I do like writing melodies or painting pictures...but lyrics? My situation is like yours and what I really try to do is to try to find out what the melody feels like, what emotions does it bring up?
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Hi, Andrew. You go about songwriting as I do...melody comes first. If it's a hit, it comes easily. But I struggle with words. Well, I'm not a lyricist, I write words. Anyway, I have to wait for the melody to let me know what the title is. Sometimes I know right away, sometimes takes months. My words are conversational. I've had some songs take me up to 20 years to write! In some of those cases, I found someone to write the lyrics or to finish the song. But most important, the words have to feel like the melody. It has to have the mood because the melody fills in the spaces between the letters of the words.
…
I usually have a formula for most things I do like writing melodies or painting pictures...but lyrics? My situation is like yours and what I really try to do is to try to find out what the melody feels like, what emotions does it bring up? Thanks John! It sounds like we do have similar challenges. Your comments make me think I should do a study of the relationship between the music of a selection of songs and their lyrics to see if the relationship is clear. I have a song project on my list to write an Elliott Smith-like song and I am sure the lyric/music relationship for a lot of his songs will be quite clear. I note you drew a distinction between lyrics and words … I am assuming you mean that lyrics have more metre/prosody to them, whereas words are just words with rhymes (or not)? Andrew
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Hi, Andrew. The distinction I make in words vs. lyrics is that lyrics are colorful, have ways of looking at things differently, poetic, yet easy to follow. For example the song "Windy" by Ruthann Friedman recorded by The Association. Gordon Lightfoot has a very minstrel and poetic way of putting his songs across as well as a great tunesmith. On the other hand, a song like "Lonely People" by Dan Peek (America) is like talking to someone at church, in a restaurant, or a party. Yet "Lonely People" was still something people could relate to and it had a catchy melody. I've been criticized heavily by a few other songwriters who pride themselves on their lyrics and called my songs "generic." I do write conversational songs and tell stories in plain ways. Conversely, I remember one songwriter who emphasized lyrics was pissed that I write very catchy memorable tunes. I have to admit a personal disdain for lyricists who get too cryptic and are elevated to some sophisticated status and considered "deep" while all the while I can't understand what the g0dd@mn fcck they've written!
Yesterday I put up "You Can Feel It" and wondered where the hell I put it. I could swear I hit the submit button. I looked and didn't see it so I figured I must not have hit the button hard enough. So I tried it again. Okay, it worked. Then I found out today that I posted the first one on this topic by mistake! Geez, I really am 71 years! But I'm on the autism spectrum so I just tell myself I've been like this all my life.
John
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Andrew, here's a second response based on what I observe my lyricist doing...
The inspiration can be literally anything. He wrote a song about a calendar I had hanging on our shared bedroom wall in 1975. He wrote another song about a girl I dated exactly once in high school, who he never met. Wrote another about a trip I made to Manhattan without knowing anything about the trip other than it lasted five days. The launch point can be whatever he hears that grabs his imagination.
And imagination, is, I believe, the key. He's an accomplished "method actor" with regard to inhabiting the story he wishes to tell. For example, we had a stupidly idyllic childhood, but he can write a breathtaking lyric about abusive parents. And he's been married for over 40 years, but has been writing songs about breaking up for...over 50 years.
So "write what you know" is good advice indeed. But learning how to write beyond what you know and about WHAT INSPIRES YOU is perhaps next level stuff. Jimmy Webb was not a lineman, but wrote one of the most beloved (and recorded) songs of all time about the longing of a lineman.
But for sure, it's a journey, not a destination...
DC Ron
BiaB Audiophile
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ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM
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Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
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Hi John! Hi, Andrew. ...
I've been criticized heavily by a few other songwriters who pride themselves on their lyrics and called my songs "generic." Generic? Ouch! How unkind. Songwriting is a spectrum, and one song might be slanted one way while another has a different emphasis - or style - or mood - or directness etc. As listeners, some songs tickle our fancy and others don't. Our own preferences are not the only way. I do write conversational songs and tell stories in plain ways. Conversely, I remember one songwriter who emphasized lyrics was pissed that I write very catchy memorable tunes. I have to admit a personal disdain for lyricists who get too cryptic and are elevated to some sophisticated status and considered "deep" while all the while I can't understand what the g0dd@mn fcck they've written! Too cryptic? Guilty as charged your Honour! Please - if I write a really good song with cryptic lyrics, I wouldn't mind being elevated to some sophisticated status and considered deep, even just for a day!  But I have also written some direct lyrics, storytelling etc. I was always impressed by Neil Finn (Split Enz, Crowded House) that he could write what I will call 'oblique' lyrics - very singable but what are they about? e.g. Distant Sun. J&B on this forum call them 'join the dots' lyrics - interpretable in many ways. Yesterday I put up "You Can Feel It" and wondered where the hell I put it. I could swear I hit the submit button. I looked and didn't see it so I figured I must not have hit the button hard enough. So I tried it again. Okay, it worked. Then I found out today that I posted the first one on this topic by mistake! Geez, I really am 71 years! But I'm on the autism spectrum so I just tell myself I've been like this all my life.
John Don't worry about that John - you can always mark the post in the wrong area as 'Resolved' or delete entirely. The number of times I've responded to another's post only to find I never pressed 'Post Reply'. I'm glad you seem to be enjoying the forums and actively contributing - you have a lot to offer in many ways! Andrew
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Andrew, here's a second response based on what I observe my lyricist doing...
The inspiration can be literally anything. He wrote a song about a calendar I had hanging on our shared bedroom wall in 1975. He wrote another song about a girl I dated exactly once in high school, who he never met. Wrote another about a trip I made to Manhattan without knowing anything about the trip other than it lasted five days. The launch point can be whatever he hears that grabs his imagination.
And imagination, is, I believe, the key. He's an accomplished "method actor" with regard to inhabiting the story he wishes to tell. For example, we had a stupidly idyllic childhood, but he can write a breathtaking lyric about abusive parents. And he's been married for over 40 years, but has been writing songs about breaking up for...over 50 years.
So "write what you know" is good advice indeed. But learning how to write beyond what you know and about WHAT INSPIRES YOU is perhaps next level stuff. Jimmy Webb was not a lineman, but wrote one of the most beloved (and recorded) songs of all time about the longing of a lineman.
But for sure, it's a journey, not a destination... Hi Ron! Please respond as often as you like - you've always got an interesting insight - and because we both come from different starting points, you'll see and experience something that I might not. Those points above are really good angles to approach from. I'm going to summarise key points from posters' responses and blu-tak it to my desk - just to give me a mental nudge every so often. I think I was getting anxious when I posted this thread because (IMHO) I have a potentially good song, was bereft of ideas at the time, and didn't want the words to stuff it up, despite being a person that tends to under-value the lyrics-side of songwriting. I've amazed myself a few (emphasis - FEW) times over my songwriting years with good lyrics, and like all things, I think one gets better with more practice and intentional skill-stretching. Andrew
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