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What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? #882329 03/16/26 04:52 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2025 Posts: 1,157 Adelaide, Sth Aust. Andrew Dee OP Expert
OP Andrew Dee Expert Joined: Mar 2025 Posts: 1,157 Adelaide, Sth Aust.	Recently, I went BAIB RealTrack-searching for a bass track - one that is ~ 60 - 80 BPM and mostly plays notes on the 1 &, 3 & with the occasional pushed 1 note. Something like I'd expect in Neil Young's 'Old man' or 'Heart of Gold'. After a bit of fruitless searching, I put 'Neil Young' in the title search and up popped both songs but showing 'swing' feel. Swing? Nah. I was tapping away on my desk while humming to confirm that both are 'straight'. I've always associated swing with triplet 8th notes - long, short as some describe. I went looking up YouTube videos describing swing music theory which all seem to confirm my historic understanding. Am I too narrow in my understanding of swing? What feel would you classify 'Old man' and 'Heart of gold'? Is BIAB title database just wrong? If so, how can we change it? Andrew PS If you happen to know of a bass RT that meets my requirements (BIAB or user style track), please let me know the number or where to find it - I haven't found one yet. Also (this is a more extreme request), if anyone familiar with Split Enz and their song 'One step ahead' knows of a bass RealTrack like it, I'd be happy to hear about that as well. Regards, Andrew D Adelaide, Sth Aust Soundcloud: https://on.soundcloud.com/SQE4btVvNVkLq74e9 Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@andrewoftheantipodes

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882343 03/17/26 12:40 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,676 DC Ron Veteran
DC Ron Veteran Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,676	Andrew, I think you're correct about those two songs. Just checked Neil's Decade songbook (1978!), which does a decent job showing Neil's timing, and the sheet music does not indicate swing either. Probably just an error in the BiaB database. I've had little luck finding bass tracks that play exactly what's in my head, so I most often settle. But when I MUST hear something specific, I'll get close and then edit the bass track in Melodyne. Because most bass is monophonic, you could also chop up the bass note by note where needed and edit in most any DAW. Love early Neil Young. That style of ragged beauty is of course a hard sound for BiaB to duplicate with ease... Last edited by DC Ron; 03/17/26 12:40 AM. DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882357 03/17/26 05:55 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Swing to me is not straight eight notes. The second of the pair is delayed. Some hiphop rhythms swing the 16th notes. The delay can be subtle or even approach but not reach dotted eighth & sixteenth status. As far as I can tell, Heart of Gold is definitely straight, Old Man might have a very slight swing feel to the melody. Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882374 03/17/26 07:30 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,857 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,857 Middlesex, NC	Swing has a fairly wide latitude in practice. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882386 03/17/26 10:05 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,562 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY Matt Finley Veteran
Matt Finley Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 27,562 Hudson Valley & Lake George NY	As Notes and Herb said, Swing does have a wide latitude. My notation software allows me to dial-in a percentage of swing. To me, there are two categories: straight eighths, and ‘other’. BIAB 2026 Win Audiophile. Software: Fender Studio One 8, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Presonus Quantom HD8 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Matt Finley #882387 03/17/26 10:18 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California Mike Halloran Veteran
Mike Halloran Veteran Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California	Originally Posted by Matt Finley As Notes and Herb said, Swing does have a wide latitude. My notation software allows me to dial-in a percentage of swing. To me, there are two categories: straight eighths, and ‘other’. To make things even more fun, there's Viennese where the second beat in the waltz is rushed and the third beat is slightly delayed. I have had to school more than one orchestra or theater pit ensemble on this but, once they get it... wicked cool! Learned about this in one of Oscar Levant's books where he wrote about arguing with Gene Kelly during the making of An American in Paris. Listen for it in the "By Strauss" number. BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro/Notion6/Overture5

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882443 03/18/26 06:20 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	When I was either in middle or high school, the band director played a number of recordings of the same Viennese waltz. He told us to listen to how the different conductors rushed the second beat by different amounts. It was a valuable lesson in critical listening, instead of just hearing. It also taught me that musical notation is not exact, but in many cases just an approximation. In rock/blues/pop music, I'd call it the groove. We not only use variations of the swing feel in the sub beats, but often either rush or delay the 2nd and 4th beat of a 4/4/ measure. Which direction and how much depends on the song and the interpreter. In a recording session, and in most live bands, the groove is established by the drummer, and everyone else fits into the pocket. It's also why with my user styles, I recommend that you don't substitute the 'real drum' function. My bass player and drummer work as a team, the same groove, and parts that work together. Plus, the particular groove depends on the style. If you substitute something that is not in the pocket, it won't sound nearly as good, even of the tone is better. While there are songs that favor quantizing the notes to the exact divisions that the notation specifies, in pop music, these are the exceptions. When I listen to music, the groove is something I pay attention to. Plus how all the parts various musicians are playing work together to build the song. I also listen to the melody to hear phrasing and how it plays with the groove, either by complying or contrasting. There are so many things to listen to in a song sometimes I never even get to the words. Instead of the singer singing words, it's just various ways of articulating the note. Which IMO, if you don't listen to the words, but everything else the singer is doing, it can teach you how to play better solos and melodies. OK, I guess I've drifted far enough from the swing. Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882451 03/18/26 07:00 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,031 Winston Salem, NC USA Jim Fogle Veteran
Jim Fogle Veteran Joined: Aug 2011 Posts: 11,031 Winston Salem, NC USA	One way to vary the amount of swing and where to replace straight notes with a little bit of push or drag is to convert all or part of a Realtrack to a Playable Realtrack. Playable Realtracks works really well with a monophonic instrument patch like an acoustic or electric bass since the notes of a Playable Realtrack are audio samples of the instrument so you're replacing like with like. You can also select if a bar is based on straight 16th or triplet based. Jim Fogle - 2026 BiaB (Build 1224) RB (Build 8) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Notes Norton #882467 03/18/26 11:14 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California Mike Halloran Veteran
Mike Halloran Veteran Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California	Originally Posted by Notes Norton When I was either in middle or high school, the band director played a number of recordings of the same Viennese waltz. He told us to listen to how the different conductors rushed the second beat by different amounts. It was a valuable lesson in critical listening, instead of just hearing. It also taught me that musical notation is not exact, but in many cases just an approximation. … All of my ensembles are told at some point, "The black spots are just marks on a page—that's not where the music is. The music always comes from you." BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro/Notion6/Overture5

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882484 03/18/26 06:13 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,569 Australia Noel96 Veteran
Noel96 Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 20,569 Australia	Hi Andrew, I notice in the Titles search that "Heart of Gold" is listed as SW16. If the style is a SW16 style, it can be used for songs that have straight/even 1/8th notes. My experience is that the SW16 styles that I've encountered in BIAB are based on 1/16th note triplets. This makes them very versatile. As the graphic above shows, the first note in a group of 1/16th note triplets always aligns with a non-swung (EV) 1/8th note. In other words, the "swing" on the 1/16th note occurs between straight 1/8th notes and doesn't interfere with melodies or rhythms based on EV8 notes. So if a melody is EV8, rhythms that will work are EV8, EV16 and SW16. Just my 2¢ worth --Noel MY SONGS... Audiophile BIAB 2026 audios on Soundcloud

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882492 03/19/26 01:28 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Arcachon, France TheMaartian Journeyman
TheMaartian Journeyman Joined: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Arcachon, France	I find these two images to be helpful for swung eighth notes. From StudyBass.com ( Shuffle and Swing Rhythms ): What is Shuffle Rhythm? Shuffle rhythm is a specific 8th note rhythmic feel. It is based on triplet subdivisions of the beat rather than on dividing each beat perfectly in half (a.k.a. straight 8th notes). It’s easiest to understand it by hearing it. It is a very familiar rhythmic feel that’s heard in rock, blues, and jazz. Listen to the examples on the exercises page for this lesson. Shuffle eighth notes alternate a long note and a short note. The long note falls on the beat and the short one in-between on the off-beat. You are essentially playing the eighth note triplet, but not playing the middle note of the triplet. You may think of the first two notes of the triplet as being tied together or, just missing the middle note of the triplet. What is Swing Rhythm? People will say swing rhythm is pretty much the same as shuffle rhythm. This is more or less true. And, in the beginning you may as well think that way. To me, I think of shuffle as rigidly based on the underlying triplet rhythm. Swing is similar, but open to more interpretation. If you listen to different jazz musicians, they all swing rhythms slightly differently. There's a lot of room for subtle variation. Most people will tell you swing cannot be accurately notated, only felt. In jazz you're always expected to swing 8th notes unless it is a Latin tune (i.e. Bossa Nova, Samba) where you use straight 8th notes. The swing rhythm is a defining element of jazz. Last edited by TheMaartian; 03/19/26 01:37 AM. ThinkPad i9 32GB RAM 7TB SSD; Win11 Pro; RME Fireface UCX II; BiaB 2026 Ultra Studio Pro 8; Tonalic Studio 1; Reaper v7; Bitwig Studio 6; Melodyne Studio 5 Gig Performer 5; NI S61 MK3; Focal Shape 65; Beyerdynamic DT 880 & 770

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882493 03/19/26 01:30 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,676 DC Ron Veteran
DC Ron Veteran Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 3,676	Noel, brilliant insight, THANK YOU. Honestly, I've never used a SW16, even when I should have. The SW16 folk styles I tried worked fine for both of the songs in the original post. (Well, except for the pushed D chord that starts in the 2nd bar tin "Heart of Gold". Can never get BiaB pushed chords to sound right to my ears. Different topic.) So in response to this post's subject/question "Have I been wrong all these years?", for me, the answer is yes. Thanks, Professor! DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Mike Halloran #882498 03/19/26 05:36 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	I know a lot of people feel that a triplet feel is swing, and it can be, but swing is more variable than that. It could be closer to two eighth notes, or closer to a dotted eighth and sixteenth note combo. As far as shuffle rhythm is concerned, the same thing applies. Originally Posted by Mike Halloran All of my ensembles are told at some point, "The black spots are just marks on a page—that's not where the music is. The music always comes from you." I like the way you said that. And it applies to saying the shuffle or swing equals triplet timing. The rhythm is something you can't always notate, it's something you have to feel. Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Notes Norton #882585 03/20/26 03:54 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK Gordon Scott Veteran
Gordon Scott Veteran Joined: Jan 2015 Posts: 2,662 Hampshire, UK	Originally Posted by Notes Norton I know a lot of people feel that a triplet feel is swing, and it can be, but swing is more variable than that. It could be closer to two eighth notes, or closer to a dotted eighth and sixteenth note combo. It's probably worth remembering, too, that it needn't be just 1/8 or 1/16 notes that are swung. Swung 1/2 notes are not uncommon. I've not really thought about swung 1/4, but I guess those too. Yes, it's a feel and how, or even whether, it's notated is personal really. It's often written dotted and shorter, but it'll sometime just say "swing" somewhere near the tempo indication. Dum ti-dum ti-dum. Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11 BIAB2026 Audiophile, a bunch of other software. Kawai MP6, Ui24R, Focusrite Saffire Pro40 and Scarletts .

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Andrew Dee #882589 03/20/26 06:45 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,503 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	In the very early days of rock n roll, some songs had swing and straight parts mixed. Often a straight 8 rhythm with the vocals using swing or part straight and part swing. If done right, it doesn't clash and is actually interesting, Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: What is 'swing'? Have I been wrong all these years? Notes Norton #882603 03/20/26 11:04 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California Mike Halloran Veteran
Mike Halloran Veteran Joined: Apr 2017 Posts: 2,038 Sillie Con Valley, California	Originally Posted by Notes Norton In the very early days of rock n roll, some songs had swing and straight parts mixed. Often a straight 8 rhythm with the vocals using swing or part straight and part swing. If done right, it doesn't clash and is actually interesting, “Oh Susie Q” BIAB 2025 Audiophile Mac 24Core/60CoreGPU M2 MacStudioUltra/8TB/192GB Sequoia/Tahoe, M1 MBAir, 2012 MBP Digital Performer11, Logic, Finale27/Dorico/Encore/SmartScorePro/Notion6/Overture5

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