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I have searched the forum but cant find the exact answer to this so sorry if its been asked before
I use BinaB Ultrapakplus 2010.5 to create backing tracks for both myself on Tenor Sax and sometimes a small group--Tenor, Soprano, Clarinet, Trumpet--all Bb.
I use Fake Books to get the melody lines and chords--I always buy the version for Bb--Just got the Hal Leonard 600+ Jazz Standards
The thing is that I always assumed that the chords shown in these books are in Concert so that say a piano can play the chords as written as backing for Bb instruments
That being the case I leave the key sig in BinaB at C and then enter the chords--It doesnt work--I have to get BinaB to transpose the chord sheet to Bb to get everything in tune--the thing is though that we then seem to get a odd chord sequence on the screen to solo over--musical experts we are NOT so it might just be us--but why call it a Bb Fake Book if the chords are not correct for Bb instruments in the 1st place
My question is this
If I set the key symbol to Bb in BinaB before entering the chords does BinaB actually play them in C but we get the right chord sequence to solo over on the screen
As an aside can we set a soloist to only play in certain bars in ceratin choruses to give us the option to put a piano or guitar solo in our songs
Tx
Phil
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Ooops
Have found the answer to the second question about adding soloists, already on this forum--sorry
Phil
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Fakebooks are written so that all instruments who read that particular fakebook can play the tune together, each reading the fakebook of the correct pitch for that instrument.
For example, if the Bb fakebook has an F chord written, or the note of F, then the C fakebook will have an Eb written.
Normally, one would enter songs into BIAB by reading the C fakebook. However, since you bought a Bb fakebook, do this:
1. Select the correct key signature for the tune as written in the Bb fakebook.
2. Enter the tune as written in the Bb fakebook.
3. Change the key signature one full step (or two-half-steps) lower (examples: E goes to D; Eb goes to Db) and say Yes to the question, OK to transpose worksheet.
4. The piano, guitar, and any other non-transposing instrument will play the song this way if you print it.
5. Now, to see it as a Bb instrument wants it, go to Opt, Preferences, Notation. In the pulldown for Transposition Options, select Clarinet +2.
6. Now you will hear the song in the correct key for piano etc. but see it in the correct key for a Bb instrument.
7. The transposition preference in BIAB is not saved with the song, so remember to go back after saving the song and set it to Concert pitch. It's also a good idea to save the song in a separate folder, or give it a different name such as Mysong Bb, so that you know that it was intended to be played with a transposition in effect. Otherwise, someday you will load that song, print it for a pianist, and get a surprise when it's played in the 'wrong' key. When you load a song, there is a brief yellow box flashing in the upper left corner to warn you a transposition is in effect.
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Hi Matt
Thanks for that--pretty sure I understand it
I will give it a try
Regards
Phil
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Matt,
This is a complicated subject for beginners and you helped explain how it works very well. I ran into this problem when I got into big band music and to my surprise, many of the big band musicians can’t give a clear answer. I asked one if they knew the key they played in and the answer was no. They just play the sheet music in front of them that is for their instrument and leave the rest to the conductor. Thanks again…
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Harold and Phil, you are very welcome.
Harold, your post reminds me that, in order to follow the method I described, one 'should' know how to determine what key a song is in, and that's a different topic. I just wanted to make it clear that, even if someone did not know, you could still do the steps I laid out. Just pick something arbitrary, like one of my examples.
The reason for entering the key signature into BIAB before your enter a song, is that the program guesses the accidentals much more accurately. Example: if you are in the key of C and use the mouse to place a note of F, you will see F natural. But if you have set the key to D and place that same F, BIAB will make it F#. This intelligence is a great time saver.
Also, for anyone reading this, transposing isn't hard. For example, since a Bb instrument (all the ones Phil mentioned) is pitched one full step below a C instrument (like piano or guitar), you must raise the notes one full step higher to compensate. [Tenor sax,technically an octave and a full step.] Anyone playing a Bb instrument should also learn to read music in concert pitch so they can play from a part written for piano, guitar etc. Just play a note one full step higher than what is written.
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Matt gave a good explanation on how to do what you want. I made the same mistake with my Bb fake book at first. Wap! (sound of hand heel hitting my forehead). I should have known that from my Aebersole books that have parts for different instruments. I aske myself why the chords in the Bb book would be different from the C book. Then, it was, "Oh yeah, what if you are improvising. Duh!" If I can, I always buy the "C" fakebooks and Bb fakebooks. This is because my wife plays flute and I have to do all of the arranging, printing, etc. stuff. She always wants the melody entered and raised up an octave. I do that and then print her part out. Then I just go to Edit and click Undo Transpose. Let's say it's in the key of F for a C instrument using Matt's example. That would make it the key of G for a Bb instrument. So, I just click transpose to G and then print out my part (making sure that it's down an octave from the flute). Then it's back to Edit to Undo Transpose. Then I save the song which will be in a concert key. The BIAB notation printouts are way better than the fakebooks and even Sibelius, IMHO. Of course I'm an old guy who likes larger and clear print, too.
If there's a fakebook disk available from Bob "Notes" Norton (Google for his website), I always buy it. He has the chords and styles for the various FB tunes already done as BIAB songs. Even though I may want to add an intro and do a little tweaking, Norton's FB disks have saved me a lot of time. Of course, sometimes you can find the midi song you want on the web somewhere to do what you need to do with it in either real band or biab. If you don't have a wife who wants the melody entered, you are good to go.
Hope this helps. I'm sure others with more knowledge than me will chime in if need be. I have learned a lot from the kind and knowledgeable folks on these forums.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Hi Guys
Actually this has raised a few things I didnt previously think about in BinaB
I now see that the key sig in BinaB is a great tool for entering acidentals in a melody line automatically when composing a tune depending on the key you choose--to answer a previous point we do know the key sig by the number of # or b at the beggining--we know the simple 2 or 3, # or b and if its more we cheat and use the circle of fifths
Its not really applicable to us yet as I dont use BinaB for composing but only for playing backing tracks, mostly piano ,bass and drums.--We might have a go at composing later so well worth knowing
As we are all playing Bb instruments we just photocopy the melody line from the Fake Book, so dont print melody sheets--mind you we are thinking of inviting an Alto player so will need the melody line transposing to Eb--If I manually enter the Bb melody line into BinaB I assume I can get it to transpose to Eb for me--that sounds like a lot of effort so I'll probably just do it by hand--pity I cant scan a melody line in
To be honest though, that still doesnt explain to my thick brain why the chords shown above the Bb Fake Book are not simply in C
Chords are usually played by a rhythm section, Piano, Bass, Guitar etc which are all C instruments so if everyone wanted to play from the same sheet then they would want the chords in C---Although of course that would of course mean the the Bb player would have to transpose to get the right chords to solo over
If in fact the chords in the Bb Fake Book are already in Bb to make it easy for the Bb player to solo over then shouldnt we load the chords into BinaB with the key sig set to Bb and then get BinaB to raise them to C but NOT transpose the chordsheet
Would this give us the right result--Sorry Matt, if thats just another way of stating what you wrore
This seems the reverse of what we currently do--we load them with BinaB set to C and then get BinaB to drop them to Bb
Phil
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The Chords in your Bb Faike Books are transposed to Bb so that you can use them to play improvised solos over the changes or analyze the chord progression to do things like that with it and not have to also deal with transposing the chords from Concert C to your Bb instrument. And since the notes are already transposed, the chords above them should match.
The Rhythm instruments should not be using the Bb chart to play off of anyway. But if they do, they have to transpose the chords down one step.
--Mac
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Quote:
Would this give us the right result
Phil
No.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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In many cases there is a standard key for a song. It is thus written in C in the Standard Key. Thus the B flat book transposes it so that the Bflat instruments play it in the correct key. This does not mean you have to play it yourself in that key. Often differing groups of players stick to certain keys by default. Lots of folk style Canadian genre bands play in E and A. This is due to the fiddler being more comfortable with that.
That said, the book is not in Bflat. The book simply takes a piece normally played in the c book and transposes it for ease of use into the correct key for bflat instruments. That said, some bflat instrument players (ie Trombones) learn the positions as if playing in C thus need no transposition. Drives me nuts when figuring out which bone player needs which piece of music, Bass Clef C, Bass Clef Bflat, or which of the other two clefs and in which version .....
In the Practice (P) window just set band in a box to transpose your instrument for Bflat. So for example This is the End of a Beautiful Friendship is normally played in C by a Jazz Band. The transposition for Bflat puts the piece in D for a bflat horn. It is always up 2 semitones. So C goes to D. F goes to G. But if you do not like the key, say for example you are allergic to 5 flats do not play the piece in the key of B which for a horn transposes to D flat or 5 flats.
Playing or practicing alone the best bet is to set the software to Bflat by using the Practice (P) window, hit bflat, and then practice the piece in the keys you are most comfortable with. Set the global transposition to +2 and then transpose as usual in Band in a Box to whatever key you like.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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If I was doing it, I would first set the transpose to Bb (notation options, or Practice Window).,
Then, you can enter chords directly out of the Bb book. Any time you want to go back to concert, set the transpose to 0.
In either case, the song files are always saved in concert key.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Hi Peter
Thanks for the reply
I have done that and it works, and the great thing is that I can transpose the actual sounds of the chords to concert but not get BinaB to transpose the chord sheet so we still see the chords on the computer screen as we input them from the Bb book
Tx
Phil
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Sorry guys,
Not what I meant to say--early morning here in the UK so not quite awake
It works fine but you do have to say "yes" to transpose worksheet to get BinaB to change the pitch of the chords to concert or any key for that matter.
It still means though that we can use the chords from the Fake Book to solo over
BR
Phil
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Right!!
To get to the basic question behind all this and stop boring everyone to death with this post
I create a new song, select a key and put chords on the chord sheet then select a style and any Real Tracks.
I also ask it to make a melody based on these chords--I press play and it plays the song
If I then go to the key sig box and change it to another key I get a screen which asks "OK to transpose worksheet"
If I say "Yes" to this, the chords on the screen are changed and play in the key I have selected and so does the melody line as BinaB works out all the changes to # and b for the new key--in other words the whole song--chords and melody-- are changed to the new key--is this correct??
However if I say "No" to this then what happens?--is it that BinaB changes the melody line acording to the new key but keeps the chords the same as when I entered them in the 1st place??
Tx
Phil
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I see now that we are talking about two different things here. My post about the Handy Transposition Chart belongs in the Off Topic forum. Here we are talking about Biab. I am talking about not having Biab at the moment.
You come to practice with the band and you ask, what key are we doing this song in? ANS: C. you, having a Bb instrument can find the key of D using the Chart at a glance. Pro’s would not need to do this. I am thinking beginners. Thanks Peter. The practice way to transpose is the way to go.
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Quote:
I..... My post about the Handy Transposition Chart belongs in the Off Topic forum. Here we are talking about Biab. I am talking about not having Biab at the moment.
You come to practice with the band and you ask, what key are we doing this song in? ANS: C. you, having a Bb instrument can find the key of D using the Chart at a glance. Pro’s would not need to do this. I am thinking beginners. Thanks Peter. The practice way to transpose is the way to go.
Thanks for a most handy chart. I'm only used to going from Bb to C and vice versa. Now I can start to struggle through Eb and F. 
Cornet Curmudgeon
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Quote:
If in fact the chords in the Bb Fake Book are already in Bb to make it easy for the Bb player to solo over then shouldnt we load the chords into BinaB with the key sig set to Bb and then get BinaB to raise them to C but NOT transpose the chordsheet
Would this give us the right result--Sorry Matt, if thats just another way of stating what you wrore
This seems the reverse of what we currently do--we load them with BinaB set to C and then get BinaB to drop them to Bb
Phil
Obviousy Phil, you can do it any way that works for you but if you want to be musically correct in the context of what everybody does then that means everybody has the correct chart for their instrument. Example, I work with several sax players who play both tenor and alto. They play out of separate books, one labeled Eb and one labeled Bb. I also get called occasionaly to play piano in a big band and it's the same thing there except for a 20 something piece big band, the leader trucks in the charts using an airport luggage carrier because of having to have three complete sets of charts for over 100 songs. Concert, Eb and Bb. And, in a big band there's no fake charts, everything is written out with no repeats so each song is usually 4, 5, 6 or even 10 pages all taped together.
Nobody will hand any horn player a chart where the notes are in Bb or Eb but the chords are in C. Just load the song in Biab in the concert key, print it out for any concert instruments and then transpose it to Bb and Eb including the chord sheet and print those. You can do what one of my friends who also uses Biab does and save your songs in different keys in separate directories like one concert directory and one Bb directory. Then of course there's the case of bringing in a vocalist and that person needs it in yet another key so you do it again in another directory. Over the years, I've got tunes I've printed out in several different keys both concert and Bb and it was only for one gig 8 years ago but of course, I don't want to throw anything out so now I've also got paper files all over the place too. Hmmm, I need another life...
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Bob. I know what you mean about all those files--with a number of different versions. That's why I do like you say...I always save it in the concert key first and then do whatever transposing I need to and print out the notation each time. I use Undo each time and when I'm done, I just have the one original file. One thing that helps me is to use the modification date and time to see which is the last and final one. FWIW
We use Carbonite for our backup files. It's saved us more than a few times and is worth every penny.
Stan
Cornet Curmudgeon
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