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Joined: Dec 2007
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Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 618 |
Since VSC doesn't work on 64bit, please include a good SoftSynth.
Since most of your software depends on MIDI, why haven't you worked on a good sounding sound source?
Buying BIAB without good sounds included is absurd.
Also, make some new MIDI styles.
Wayne,
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I agree i would love to see PG develop a top notch midi GM synth, something that makes VSC, TTS, and Forte obsolete. So that those who choose to not go the hardware route can have great sounding samples. make it compatible with Rb and PTPA as well.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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I would rather see PG spend their resources improving their products than to become a softsynth producer. Maybe they could team up with a beter sounding GM softsynth and have it included with BiaB and RB, but that could increase costs. Maybe we could purchase better sounding softsynths to get better sounding mixes. I have yet to find a GM softsynth that sounds acceptable through out the 128 patches. A couple of sounds maybe but not the whole set. A few years I did assemble a fairly decent Creative soundfont GM set using free and purchased SF2s. That still can be done. There are some GM softsynths out there that supposedly will yield good sounds. Personally I use TTS as my GM softsynth in BiaB but I rarely use GM in my final songs as I have purchased far better individual sounding softsynths and patches. There are some good free ones here: http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/One final note, the better the sounds the more money they will cost. PS – I do agree with you on the more midi styles request.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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You can get better sounds, of course, but until we have a good way of stylizing those sounds (through pitch bends, dynamics, different articulations, etc), then you're still pretty much stuck with "note on - note off", and it won't sound real.
I think it would be cool to be able to define a MIDI style sheet for each instrument in your song (or for something like RealBand, for maybe even parts of the song). We need an easy way to indicate that we want some level of (for example) vibrato, tremelo, glissando, pitch bends, half valve or muted strings, note crescendo, decrescendo, legato, staccato, sforzandos, slurs, well you get the idea. That's what will make the instruments sound better. You can do a lot of that with Continuous Controllers, but it's a lot of work. It would be great to have an easier way to specify the style you'd like the instrument played. Sort of like having the BIAB embellisher on steroids.
If you did that, you would probably find that even the lower end synths sound a whole lot better than they do today with just "note on - note off".
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Hi John, I will agree with you that adding all of the nuances to the parts would be ideal and would lead to more natural sounding midi parts. However I will RESPECTFULLY disagree on a couple of your points. Note I highlighted respectfully because I do not want anyone to get the wrong idea. I am not trying to start a war; I respect John’s opinions and I’m sure he respects mine. We just disagree on a couple of issues.
I believe what you are talking about are midi maps. Midi maps are programs that set various CC levels for a sound patch. The problem I have found with preprogrammed CC’s levels like vibrato, pitch bends etc. is that they will sound static after a while also. Acoustic instruments constantly change nuances and the only way to do that to date is by playing with CCs. Another problem with preprogrammed CCs is that each patch/synth can react differently to the CC setting. The preprogrammed CCs must match the patch.
Although lower end synths may sound a little better with CC’s they do not have enough samples to come close to the more expensive synths. Many lower end synths only have a velocity layer or two where higher end one will have many more. Velocity layers can add a lot of realism to your playing even with just note on and note off. Now I do realize that no midi instrument will sound like the acoustic instrument it is emulating.
The bottom line from my point of view is that if you want more realistic sounding midi you have to spend money. For example you buy the total PGMusic Biab 2009 upgrade package for $379. For much better sounding GM you buy the Ketron SD2 for $380. You now have a $759 tied up. You can write in CCs in your sequencer or you can purchase a 49 key midi controller for around $250. Now you’re up to around $1000. IMHO that’s the minimum it takes for better emulation of acoustic instruments. How much would PG Music have to charge for a SD2 like sounding softsynth with midi maps? I bet it would be considerably more than the 2009 upgrade package.!
I would rather have PG Music spend their resources on improving BiaB, PTPA and RB than spend those resources on developing GM sound sets. Things like improved midi resolution in BiaB, fix the timing VSTi problem in RB, more RTs, fix notation so it can display time signatures other than 3-4 and 4-4 etc.
Just my USD two cents.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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No problem with disagreement at all, Mario. I just wanted to point out that right now, all you pretty much get is "note-on, note-off" with the MIDI implementation. Only by embellishing that (at least within the GM domain) are you going to get better sounds. Not great, but better. That means using some combination of CC's, different sound sources, maybe DXi/VSTi effects, etc. Probably not very portable, but would work for "your" setup. I also don't want to get to the point where I have to tweak every single note - sort of takes away the purpose of "auto accompaniment" and quick song creation, at least as far as BIAB is concerned. But just like BIAB embellisher lets you embellish based on certain criteria, it's a whole song, melody track only approach. It would be nice to be able to highlight some bars, specify the track(s), and just embellish that section (with some additional options than currently provided). That's all I was getting at. Ideas to make MIDI sound less mechanical. For the discerning ear, I don't think MIDI will ever sound real. My $0.02 worth (losing value every day) 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Joined: May 2003
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Expert
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Expert
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In order to clarify the topic and add some data, I confirm that you can get the best GM synth of the world, but if you don't dive into the MIDI data , you'll never get a correct final result. Many people think first about 'sound' because it looks easier to change of sound module. But as said Jford and MarioD, if you really want professionnal results you have to go in some MIDI editing. For me and for many home musicians, it is a necessity. But I admit it take some time, it need a good understanding of MIDI controllers and good notions about instrumentation. In fact, you have to work on two aspects of your music : #1 the sound itself (that is the GM MIDI engine) AND #2 the music stuff (that is arrangement of your song, editions of CCs, stylizations according the styles, ...). So, some work for a long time....
Reach for excellence
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And this is exactly why they've put all their resources on developing more Real Tracks. The players are putting those nuances in because they're real players, not a GM soundset.
Something else to consider is how serious does a person take this as their hobby? If you compare this to anything else people do for recreation that costs a substantial sum and it's really very inexpensive. Compare the $1,000 minimum cost to skiing, both water and snow, golfing, model airplanes, whatever. People spend thousands per year at least on those things. Under a thousand for some software or Biab plus the Ketron SD2 is nothing. If you're serious, step up and open your wallet. Five grand is really more like it. You want articulation and control over samples? Go on YouTube and heck out a Tyros 3 keyboard by Yamaha or the new Korg Pa2X. This stuff is out and available already, it just takes some bucks but at the same level as other major hobbies.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 225
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 225 |
Quote:
Since VSC doesn't work on 64bit, please include a good SoftSynth.
Since most of your software depends on MIDI, why haven't you worked on a good sounding sound source?
Buying BIAB without good sounds included is absurd.
Also, make some new MIDI styles.
Wayne,
Actually, they do include a good GM softsynth--Coyote Wavetable.
Also, the Microsoft Synth that comes with Windows, although not great, is usable, decent, at least to start out with. Later, after one exports the BIAB project to one's DAW, one could add different plug-in synths.
Furthermore, most users already have their own softsynths.
I don't see what the problem is?
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Expert
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Expert
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What really creates an issue for some is that PGMusic have set the precedent by including the VSC softsynth. Now that this doesn't work in x64 there is a problem. The Coyote seems merely to be a wrapper for the M$ synth, which, bluntly does not "float my boat" at all.
FWIW this doesn't really affect me, at least not yet, as for my personal machine (I'm in the IT industry so I do have other machines I can use but this is my music making machine we're talking about here) I still use 32 bit XP and a Yamaha S-YXG50 synth that eats most GM synths out there (IMHO). However, one day I will be forced into a Win7 (or probably later) x64 environment and when that time comes I would most certainly appreciate a decent synth to replace my Yam.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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+1 to the OP on both counts.
The precedent has indeed been set. The VSC was and is far superior to the M$ PO$. Since BIAB is still, at heart, a MIDI-based program, surely a 64-bit-compatible substitute can be supplied with it.
By the same MIDI-based token, I agree that new MIDI styles should continue to be created.* Love the Real Tracks and all, but MIDI is what I originally bought BIAB for and what I still use it for.
R.
*I also feel that it is long past time I got on the stick and began to create my own Styles for the electronic music I compose.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Joined: Jan 2010
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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my son has got the software fruity loops.(Im going to use it with BIAB when he finishes his projects)He creates music in his bedroom using his PC keyboard and does have a decent soundcard.Its mostly dance and trance music and they sound amazing even when I play them through my studio nearfield monitors.Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Test, please ignore.
--Mac
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Joined: Dec 2005
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
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Agreed that BIAB should include a revamped, and 64 bit, GM synth. One big reason is that biab users like to share song files, and there needs to be a standard against which they are heard. pgmusic needs to have demos which show "this is how it sounds".
There are two big differences in how to proceed.
Quick and dirty: There are many public domain soundfonts, but I'm sure pgmusic could license one cheaply, if not created on their own. A 64 bit compatible sampling engine with a UI would be fairly easy to develop. This is any easy task with the tools out there these days.
An elegant solution. The real opportunity to shine would be having a GM synth which has some amount of performance intelligence so that the CC's people talk about optimizing are set by either BIAB or the GM synth(++) itself. It could even get its cues from the BIAB styles. Developers could devote a tremendous amount of time this type of approach, but once the initial hurdles were crossed, a big chunk of the results could be realized in a manageable chunk of development time.
Finally, I have found a cool signature with sufficiently dry humor.
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I think they should have the musicians arrive on my stoop when I press play. There will be a slight delay, but those cats can play.
I tried to find a gypsy Jamaican calypso reggae Cajun Appalachian style the other day and came up blank.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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