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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2010
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OP
Journeyman
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Posts: 589 |
Im sure I posted this up but cant find it so I will post it again.The song Im writing has a piano backing and the bass comes in on the 2nd verse.Ive noticed that the piano doesnt sound quite right and it sound as if its "fluttering" slightly.Could it be caused by my tempo change which is a little bit slower than the original style.If it is the cause of the "flutter"what can I do to rectify it.Thanks Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Could it be caused by my tempo change which is a little bit slower than the original style.If it is the cause of the "flutter"what can I do to rectify it.Thanks Frankie
It sure could be just that. This is a RT right? Can you simply adjust tempo to the same as the RT to see if it fixes??
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 589
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
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Posts: 589 |
Hi jazz,Ive tried that and its just a bit to fast for the song.Its not really that noticable maybe Im to picky.Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Yes, the problem comes from using a slower tempo.
I've noticed that the piano and guitars are especially noticeable when shifted down. To some extent, all the instruments suffer from time shifting, but it seems with the polyphonic instrumuments, it's a bit more pronounced.
I think that's just the nature of the technology. I've heard some programs that can time shift music down pretty impressively, but add pitch shifting to the equation, and all bets are off...
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 589
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 589 |
Hi dc,I was pretty sure it was to do with tempo but as Ive said to Jazz its not that pronounced its just that if I can hear it then publishers and record A&R people will hear it too.Cheers Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 928
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 928 |
Yeah, I've noticed R/T change-of-tempo flutter is a hit n' miss kind of thing.
Some tracks seem more "tolerant" to tempo changes than others.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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One possible solution (depending on the style) is to find a style at about twice the tempo, doubling the rate of chord changes. I think the latest version of BiaB supports this automatically with RealTracks, but I'm currently back a version so I can't verify this. I just do this in BiaB, export the track as a .WAV file, and put it together in Reaper. No doubt RB and PT support the same functionality.
If you're really adventuresome, you could export the file at a tempo where it doesn't give any artifacts, and try using some other software to time shift. Different algorithms might give different results. Audacity has a time shift algorithm, as does Reaper. And even the same algorithm is going to behave differently with different parameters.
If you do go that route, be sure to export your audio using a lossless format, such as .WAV. Unless you've got the "audiophile" version of the RealTracks, you're already introducing some artifacts. The pitch and time shifting that BiaB does is going to introduce some additional artifacts, and exporting to a lossy format like .MP3 is going to make things worse.
I doubt you'll end up with better results than what BiaB gives you, but it might be worth a shot. Now I'll have to give it a try...
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I should preface this with the note that I'm running BiaB 2009.5, so things may be different with the 2010.5 version. To test this out, I picked the PopLondon style, which is optimal at 65 BMP. I exported a piano track as a .WAV at 65 BPM, which sounded fine. I also exported a track at 60 BPM, which had noticeable artifacts: warbles, pre-echo - all the sorts of audio nastiness that is associated with time shifting. I imported the two wave files into Audacity, a free audio editor. I selected the 60 BPM track and chose Effect | Change Tempo... to determine the length of the track (101.02 seconds). I then selected the same effect for the second track, changing the its length from 93.25 seconds to 101.02 seconds. The result had many of the same audio "wobbly" pitch artifacts as BiaB. So Audacity was no better than BiaB. Next, I imported the files into Reaper. After stretching the track 65 BMP track to the same length as the 60 BPM track, I tried various pitch shifters. I listened in playback mode, using Good (64 pt Sinc), so the actual results are potentially a bit better than what I heard. The results were varied: - SoundTouch was noticeably bad, with the same artifacts BiaB and Audacity had.
- Dirac LE (slow) was (to my ears) essentially artifact free.
- Low Quality Windowed (fast) had serious phasing issues.
- elastique Pro had a slight warble in spots, and the piano sustain was a bit buzzy, but was very good.
- elastique 2.1 Pro was (again, to my ears) essentially artifact free.
The elatique algorithm has a bazillion parameters to mess with, and I didn't really fiddle with any of them. Shifting from 65 BPM to 60 BMP is quite a lot - 8% - and BiaB 2009.5's version isn't usable. Both Dirac LE and elastique 2.1 Pro produced results that were - to my ears - quite usable. Keep in mind that, the slower the tempo, the more pronounced small timing issues will become. So if you need to create tracks at tempos below those suggested by the RealTracks, exporting the tracks as .WAV files and using another program to do time shifting may provide a viable option. It's certainly one I'll consider, because it's frustrating to have a song just a hair below the suggested tempo, and not be able to use a track. Again, this was a very limited test, and YMMV. Still, it suggests that there might be better alternatives for PG Music to consider.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 589
Journeyman
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OP
Journeyman
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 589 |
thanks dc for all of your input.Because there isnt a pronounced difference at a slightly slower tempo I think I will stick with it.Its a shame BIAB hasnt got a function to sort this out maybe something for the future.Cheers Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I tried a similar test with the Flute, Soloist Bossa Ev 140. I created four .WAV files at different BPM: 140, 120, 100 and 80. I'm rather shocked by what I found. PG Music advertises: Quote:
the superior stretching features in Band-in-a-Box...
But based on my informal testing, I'd be hard pressed to call BiaB's algorithm "superior" to anything else I'd tried. Rather, it seems that it's comparable to the low-end algorithms, and rather inferior to other algorithms.
At 120 BPM, I didn't hear any artifacts from BiaB. At 100 BPM, there was objectionable warbling. 80 BPM was considerably worse.
I performed the time stretching in Audacity. BiaB seems to perform slightly better than Audacity, but not much.
Similarly, the SoundTouch algorithm in Reaper was perhaps a bit worse than BiaB, but neither Dirac LE nor elastique 2.1 Pro exhibited these artifacts.
Don't get me wrong: I love RealTracks, and PG Music offers an excellent product.
I'm just disappointed to find that "superior stretching features" don't appear to appear to be superior to anything other than the low end algorithms out there.
Still, it's very heartening to think that the lower tempo limit for many RealTracks could be be brought even lower, giving even more flexibility to users.
And if I've made a mistake in my methodology, I apologize!
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