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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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After working with Real Tracks for the past few weeks, I'd have to agree with Graham about the acoustic bass being too 'busy'...my needs were for a basic jazz quartet, with me on live piano, and the BIAB RT on bass, drums, and guitar.... I'm using the MegaPAK, so maybe my RT options are limited, but ALL of the RTs for these instruments, in my opinion, way overplay their parts... to my ears, it sounds like they are all soloing at the same time - making for a very incoherent mix - so much so that my wife, the vocalist, struggles to hear the '1' and even what key they are in... Even the 'very simple' acoustic bass RT is WAY too busy... are there no 'basic' RTs to be found?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I've been using RealTracks since they came out, and have about 50 rendered to wav. There is a mix there, and we mostly play 'standards'. I have no problem coming in and out, picking up the horn, playing a verse on piano, her on flute or horn. I used to sing, but no longer, however. I don't have issues with the above. Perhaps for simpler tastes it would be very easy to do a bass count 1 style, bass 1 and 3 style, then all you'd get is G nothing nothing nothing nothing G nothing...etc. The other would be counter bass as in G nothing C nothing G nothing..etc. That would drive me nuts. I do find it odd that these bass players are 'overdoing it.' I guess I've gotta go hear Neil in Toronto again and listen to his group. Here's a vid where he's playing with Terry Clark and Bill Mays, but I think he's on the solo only about 2:14 or so. http://new.music.yahoo.com/neil-swainson/Midi bass lines can easily be done, then the edit/freeze thing can be done. In a group most bass midi is ok. Gives you the ultimate solution as long as you have a good synth you should get a really good sound.
John Conley Musica est vita
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Love Neil's playing. Just the kind of bassist I like to work with. It's more interplay than being busy.I think I mentioned before Neil's playing is for the more modern jazz musicians. Swing and trad players would of course prefer much simpler bass lines. Modern bassists are more than just time keepers. Just listen to Scott LaFaro back in '60s with Bill Evans. He wasn't just a time keeper. The interplay between Scott and Bill was phenomenal. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think a some people are missing the point here. There is nothing at all wrong with Neil Swainson's playing, or his style, in real life. What is very wrong is the way the samples of his playing have been selected and stitched together in the programming of the BB RealTracks. As I said before, the walking baselines are just not logical. Also Neil does not use anywhere near as many fancy runs and embellishments in his actual playing.
I already did the task of listening to Neil, admittedly on recordings, and then comparing this to the RealTracks we have. I agree about the 'interplay' comment above, particularly at the slower tempos. But I still feel the RealTracks are a misrepresentation of his playing.
Is it possible that Neil's line were analysed as though they were a one or two-bar bass groove, that you might use in rock music? That will not work for jazz walking bass, of course. See my previous post on how one bar is supposed to run into the next.
I think PG Music has to start again with these jazz bass lines - even the new 'simple' and 'very simple' ones. I still find them very annoying to play against.
I wonder how Neil feels?
Grah Jive Talk "Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Here is a WMA Yamaha Mega Voice Bass Demo from my Tyros keyboard. You have to use Yamaha's Mega Enhancer software to replace the standard patches with these and it only works with Yamaha's keyboard's and sound modules that have the Mega Voices. My keyboard is about 7 years old now. Trax
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Quote:
I think a some people are missing the point here. There is nothing at all wrong with Neil Swainson's playing, or his style, in real life. What is very wrong is the way the samples of his playing have been selected and stitched together in the programming of the BB RealTracks. As I said before, the walking baselines are just not logical. Also Neil does not use anywhere near as many fancy runs and embellishments in his actual playing.
I already did the task of listening to Neil, admittedly on recordings, and then comparing this to the RealTracks we have. I agree about the 'inerplay' comment above, particularly at the slower tempos. But I still feel the RealTracks are a misrepresentation of his playing.
Is it possible that Neil's line were analysed as though they were a one or two-bar bass groove, that you might use in rock music? That will not work for jazz walking bass, of course. See my previous post on how one bar is supposed to run into the next.
I think PG Music has to start again with these jazz bass lines - even the new 'simple' and 'very simple' ones. I still find them very annoying to play against.
I wonder how Neil feels?
You put it very well Graham in this post and your previous ones. I am surprised more jazz players haven't complained about it. Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
+1
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Since I have "Kontakt" from NI I say: excellent!
It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments.
The trick of Kontakt to make it sound real: Each instrument has specifics and they can be "scripted". An acoustic bass player might use string one for an F and the same string for a G but another string for an A. This "intelligence" is built into Kontakt. Changing position on the same string will sound different inbetween the notes than using another string. In addition acoustic bass fretless and a part of its "charm" comes from some slightly out of tune notes. Tahts all built in. Next to the excellent samples used.
With this "scripting" technology even a riff recorded from a midi keyboard can sound very convincing "bass-like". Because Kontakt automagically "adds" the queek and noise and stuff a bass would do.
On the other hand: brass licks are still way behind the real thing. Solo brass instruments are so-so... and WAY behind RealTracks.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have heard some astonishing things done with General MIDI. You can do them, too, if you're willing to massage your tracks some.
A friend sent me a MIDI cover of a Beatles song with Paul playing the Hofner. As I recall, he mixed upright bass with a little steel-string acoustic guitar in the same octave to get the bottom along with the brightness of round-wound strings. It was very convincing, even on my cheap soundcard.
If I was going to do the same thing with upright bass, I'd likely try adding some fretless, especially if I was going to do much in the upper registers. Most GM uprights I've heard start sounding kinda 'tinky' up there.
I myself have done some beautiful things by mixing, say, piano voices with some of the GM pads. The results were great. The better your GM source, the better the results. Off the subject, possibly, but I never ran out of combinations I could use in GM.
Today this is called "layering" and is done routinely in software instruments such as Kontakt or Reason. But that's cheating, innit? I thought we were talking about straight GM.
In the mid 1990s I was limited to 16 MIDI tracks in whatever sequencer I was using at the time. Today we have 48 available in Real Band and effectively unlimited tracks in most mainstream DAWs. Layer away. Use The Force. Make Byootiful Music.
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
Quote:
Surely if the programmers can get midi bass to be reasonably "logical" when playing different chords, they could do the same with the real bass tracks. Hopefully someone at PG music is reading this post and will work on it in future updates
+1
Very good question. Go to garitan.com and click on jazz and big band and any track. Just don't try to run it with biab. This is crimianl since pg music sold it to me. P retty G reedy music? They know it's not general midi compliant but hey..... it's jist biddnis.
Ron
`15 Audiophile, Toshiba17", 3Mhz, 4gig ram, 500gig HD, Win7, Tascam 122mkII interface, Tascam 16 track 8 buss recording mixer, 2 Avalon747sps,CAD VX2 mic, AKG C1000s, mac and Digital Performer.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi Ron,
I'm sorry that you have that attitude.
A wise old musician once taught me that it is possible to catch way more flies with honey than with vinegar - provided, of course, that your goal is to catch the flies in the first place.
I'm not a representative of PGMusic, just a user of their fine accompaniment software for many years and have hung out hear on the forum trying to help others solve problems.
That said, I can also state unequivocally that this particular outfit is indeed a LOT different from the type of situation that you are assuming and trying to paint of them.
Yes, there are frustrations to be found in this software, there are some specific issues that by now I can tell you don't ever seem to get sorted out, but I do not believe for one instant that these problems are due to the development team (or any other dept.) at PGMusic not caring about their product or their customers.
This is from firsthand experience in dealing with this company for more than a decade now.
I too have lost time over certain issues, but in the overall have also way more good times with Band in a Box than bad. Made some money with it, too (grin).
Compared to *many* other software companies in this world, PGMusic has shown a rather outstanding record of doing GOOD BIDNESS in my experience.
It is my hope that you will stick with it long enough to experience the same for yourself, as there is a wealth of good stuff for you there.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Compared to *many* other software companies in this world, PGMusic has shown a rather outstanding record of doing GOOD BIDNESS in my experience.
I am into recording for 30+ years now, DAW user ever since they appeared but very new to Band-In-A-Box. The latter I use for composing and creating some background tracks for overdubbing later. I have NEVER been as efficient as I am now. I found some "odd" things or even bugs quite early. But no show stopper yet. Even as a novice I was able to produce the output I wanted and more than once I was just surpised how good it finally sounded. BIAB is just great and worth every cent. I should admit though that I do all the finalizing and polishing by cutting/re-arranging/mixing in my DAW. Thats what a DAW is for, finally. BIAB is for finding ideas, trying out stuff, composing and creating early versions of new music, no?
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I have used JABB with BIAB for a few years without a problem. I set up a Sax trio and a Trumpet trio and use the the bass and piano with Real Drums. Works very well although I am not a fan of the horn sounds and would only use them for practice. Dave
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Quote:
BIAB is for finding ideas, trying out stuff, composing and creating early versions of new music, no?
Right in one!
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
<...>It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments. <...>
With all due respect, this statement is absolutely false, unless you are referring to the synth you mention, Kontakt (and others).
Some synths will not reproduce them, but others will indeed. The Physical Modeling Synth I use with my wind synth (Yamaha VL70m) will reproduce 90-95% of the articulations of other instruments, and add a few of it's own.
I've fooled many guitarists into thinking my synth playing was a guitar - I even got the ultimate compliment in a major guitar forum - Your guitar playing is Jeff Beck-ish. In the thousands of guitarists on the forum, not one could tell it was a synth. When I revealed the secret, they were amazed - however one guitarist said in re-listening he though the whammy vibrato was a tiny bit too smooth.
I fooled a trumpet player who was listening in another room enough to come into our room to see who was sitting in on trumpet.
Perhaps Kontakt can't do this, but other synths can.
The thing about MIDI is that it all comes down to your synthesizer. The acoustic bass on either my Yamaha VL70m or my Korg i3 sounds good enough and is expressive enough to do the job extremely well. The few acoustic bass things they will not do are things that the above average listener could not hear anyway.
I'm a lifelong pro Tenor sax player, there are many times when I reach for my VL70m/WX5 (controller) instead of my acoustic sax on the gig. Why? Although they synth sax only does about 90% of what the acoustic sax does, it also offers me some things that the acoustic sax cannot do.
It's all in the synth module, and the player's ability to use the synth module.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
Quote:
<...>It is all true that MIDI will not transport so many "articualtions" or specific sound for instruments. <...>
With all due respect, this statement is absolutely false, unless you are referring to the synth you mention, Kontakt (and others).
I am with you. I should have written "GM MIDI" and not just "MIDI" because that is what this thread is all about. Whenever you can use some available MIDI controllers in a very specific way together with a specific synth then you are right, of course.
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And a good G-MIDI synth has all 128 continuous controllers available so it can sound extremely expressive.
The only difference between a General MIDI synth and a non GM synth is that in GMidi the acoustic bass is always patch 33. In one of my non GM synths it's 42. The bass (or other) patch on a GM synth can be of cheesy quality, like the ones in most computer sound cards, or it can be of absolute stellar quality.
Consider the work done by most keyboard players since the Yamaha DX-7 was introduced in the early 80s. By the 90s even the keyboard greats of the time like Rick Wakeman and Keith Emerson were playing new synths. And between the black and white keys and the sound generating part of virtually every digital keyboard is our old friend MIDI.
The fact that MIDI is still used today, reflects the foresight and flexibility of the engineers who wrote the specifications.
Don't want to carry around a 400+ pound B3 organ to the gig? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
Don't want to hire a string section? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
Don't want to hire an acoustic bass player? There is a little MIDI synth that will do the job.
In most cases, if the synth of good quality and is played well, most musicians will not be able to tell the difference. And the synth and player are good, the audience will not notice that it's a synth.
Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Quote:
This is crimianl since pg music sold it to me. P retty G reedy music? They know it's not general midi compliant but hey..... it's jist biddnis.
Ron
Pretty Greedy Music. Cute. You are an IDIOT Ron. Biab will work just fine with JABB you just have to jump through some hoops, it's not idiotproof simple like GM is but the tradeoff is it sounds much better than most GM synths. It's your choice if you want to keep things complex or simple and if you don't like it use the money back guarantee. Glad to know it's not just me who sets you off. What's your excuse this time, buddy?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I just wanted to say that all the complaints I made in this topic have been corrected in the RealTracks 1-121 Updates - May 1 2008 to Feb 4 2011 (Full) which I downloaded for my Audiophile version on an external hard drive two days ago. I tested the different jazz walking bass lines today and I cannot find anything to complain about. In fact, everything we suggested has been done. An excellent job from the PG development crew!
I did post a separate topic advising of this but did not like to leave this one looking as though nothing had been done. It has and personally I am well pleased!
Grah Jive Talk "Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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New RealTracks Released with Band-in-a-Box 2025!
We’ve expanded the Band-in-a-Box® RealTracks library with 202 incredible new RealTracks (in sets 449-467) across Jazz, Blues, Funk, World, Pop, Rock, Country, Americana, and Praise & Worship—featuring your most requested styles!
Jazz, Blues & World (Sets 449–455):
These RealTracks includes “Soul Jazz” with Neil Swainson (bass), Mike Clark (drums), Charles Treadway (organ), Miles Black (piano), and Brent Mason (guitar). Enjoy “Requested ’60s” jazz, classic acoustic blues with Colin Linden, and more of our popular 2-handed piano soloing. Plus, a RealTracks first—Tango with bandoneon, recorded in Argentina!
Rock & Pop (Sets 456–461):
This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
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Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
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XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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