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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92 |
We have gone round and round on this subject in one form or another. What is comes down to is what you can live with. GM is so subjective, what sounds good to you doesn't sound good to me. If you are preparing this piece for live performance, I'd be willing to bet your "non-musician" audience won't notice or care. We are always our worst critics. I'd did a gig last night with a kick-ass singer who uses all mp3's. Most of them sound good but some are really bad. I've heard better Gm files than some of her mp3's (in my subjective opinion) But she is such a phenomenal singer, NO ONE CARES about the so-so backing tracks. Now I know there are plenty of people out there ready to beat up on me for that statement so have at it. We've been down this road before and will again, and again etc...I know many of you do this just as a serious hobby or for the joy of it and want to obtain perfection if possible. But as Mac stated, to get the desired results is not worth the time and effort. BIAB is my vehicle to get paid. Time is money, I'm always balancing the time it takes to get the song right against what ever else I need to get done during the day. To get the midi sound you are looking for I think you will definitely have to go with one of the external sound modules that has already been mentioned. Good luck to you!
Dell Studio 16 Laptop i7 with 256 gig SSD
BIAB, Reaper, Encore, Sibelius
Roland SD-50
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
Jakob, I really have to say that you don't get what we have been talking about and you really don't understand what we 'jazz' (that is all I have been talking about!) musicians want from Band-in-a-Box. My criticism was about the quality of bass lines, not about sound. Plus, you will also find that most jazz musicians wouldn't dream of taking BB on a gig. Sacrilege! Believe me, these new bass RealTracks and improvements to RealStyles for JAZZ are a huge improvement. If you, or your audience don't really care about the quality of the music (so-called backing tracks), please don't invade my world. And please don't try to influence the programmers of software that has always had the highest of musical standards. Although, after listening to the backing on this video, I could concede that there might be a few exceptions to the success of a jazz musician taking BB on a gig - guitar or keyboards maybe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f47ISKaOBY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=ULThe above recorded with Band in a Box 2011 (Real Tracks) and a Pod 2.0 So, I still insist that the answer to the original question is, "Not very good compared to RealTracks!" Peace. 
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92
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Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92 |
My mistake Graham if I misunderstood your statement. I may not be a "real" jazz musician but I can tell you the real musician in my area that want to work, use backing tracks. Australia may be different but I can tell if you want to make more than $50 a gig you'll use backing tracks. Some guys use just drum tracks, some guys mix it up. There are great players out there who have a day job and can pick and choose to play a few times a year or just go to a jam session. The guys who do it for a living, do what it takes to get paid. I'm talking about "real" jazz musicians who can play circles around me. Many of them play all live gigs, but not 100% of the time especially if you're a horn player. Even if you are the best player in the city, there are only so many gigs to go around. So what are the rest of us to do, keep practicing and hope someone calls us or go out and make your own gig. I choose to make my own gigs. I worked 4 to 5 nights a week up until the economy went south. Would I love to play completely live, sure who wouldn't. Again my apologies for misreading your comments, that's a bad habit I have. In the future I'll read more carefully.
Dell Studio 16 Laptop i7 with 256 gig SSD
BIAB, Reaper, Encore, Sibelius
Roland SD-50
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 78
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Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 78 |
Quote:
I just wanted to say that all the complaints I made in this topic have been corrected in the RealTracks 1-121 Updates - May 1 2008 to Feb 4 2011 (Full) which I downloaded for my Audiophile version on an external hard drive two days ago. I tested the different jazz walking bass lines today and I cannot find anything to complain about. In fact, everything we suggested has been done. An excellent job from the PG development crew!
I did post a separate topic advising of this but did not like to leave this one looking as though nothing had been done. It has and personally I am well pleased!
Sorry to disagree Graham, but from my observation, apart from adding simple and very simple variations to Jazz Ballad Sw 60 and Jazz Sw 110, the actual programming of the bass lines of the other jazz Sw styles remains unchanged, and they are still illogical lines compared to the midi bass lines. (I play jazz piano here on Gold Coast) I realise that triplets and grace notes are reduced in the simple styles, but the programming still needs to be improved greatly as was discussed previously. Slower tempos and simple chord structures are not too bad, but using faster swing songs, with more chord changes I find the bass lines jumping all over the place. Try punching in the chords for songs like Undecided (T200)Pick yourself up (T192) or Just Friends (T190) and you will find that the programming of the bass lines has not changed at all.
Sadly for these type of songs I will stick with midi bass via my SC88 Pro, and use real drums.
Mal
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
Hi Mal,
That is exactly what I did. I put up the chords for "All The Things You Are" in Ab and tested 3 different tempos for a couple of midi styles, and the Normal, Simple and Very Simple RealTracks for three tempos.
For instance at 210 bpm, I used midi styles J!~NAT2 which is a kind of swing style and J~OLEO. Then for RealTracks I ran _JAZZBOP with Normal, Simple & Very Simple. I printed out the resulting bass lines for each and compared them.
As far as the midi styles were concerned, both styles produced reasonably logical bass lines but there were far too many eighth notes in the J~OLEO style and also large octave and fifth jumps - especially between beat 1 and 2. Every bar, without exception, started on the root note of the chord, even if the chord went for two bars.
The RealTracks were also quite logical and I thought were better at linking one bar to the next. Six bars out of 32 did not start with a root note but they used a better linking note in the chord to the previous bar. They were thirds or fifths of the chord.
On the whole, I thought the lines were better in the RealTracks than the midi.
It took me almost a whole day to run the tests and I don't think my conclusions are wrong.
Mind you, I won't be using anything else but Simple and Very Simple because there are still far too many enhancements that break up the walking rhythm in the bass track that comes with the style, which is what I have called Normal.
I could give you an even larger breakdown of my findings but the above it about the general conclusion I reached.
I've still got all the printouts to prove to myself I am right.
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616
Expert
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OP
Expert
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,616 |
Graham,
Check out the JAZSIMP Midi style. Very simple bass line in both A/B sections. I use this bass part in all of my swing songs.
As far as RT vs Midi bass, I tend to agree with poster that said the audience (for the most part) does not hear or care about the difference. I tried a RT bass in a song at a gig and found that my ears were used to the Midi bass line - simple yet solid. The RT bass often danced around the root at a time when I didn't expect it. Did the audience notice? Probably not directly but I'm sure they felt something different in that song. With the ambient lounge noise, having that solid simple bottom present is key. I'll play around with the 'new' Very Simple RTs, but in the meantime will stick with Midi at gigs. I do use RT Nylon Guitar in my Bossa songs.
...and I'd love not to take BIAB to a gig if they would pay for a bass player and drummer.
R
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 824 |
Thanks Rachael. I am familiar with most of the midi jazz styles and I agree that generally the bass lines are not that bad. However, the bass lines in the RealStyles, particularly those generated from Neil Swainson's playing, were just awful. This is not a criticism of Neil's playing but of the programming that followed. I don't know if it was my whinging that got them changed but the updates of a few days ago are in my opinion a vast improvement. But I am not a bass player even though I have studied how to construct walking bass lines. So last night I gave my printouts to the only pro bass player I know well. He is acknowledged as one of the best in Australia - Graeme Bell called him "Everybody's bass player!" - and we'll see what he has to say.
There is a more important reason that I like the RealTracks. I know that 'swing' is often claimed to be a subtle element and difficult to define, but for me the RealStyle/Track rhythm sections 'swing' whereas the midi styles are a bit stolid. I have joked before on this forum that even the midi tracks swing more than some of the musicians I have played with, but RealStyles/Tracks were a revelation for me. So I just want them as good as they can be!
I'll leave the propaganda about using real musicians on a gig after this short rant, because I am not a pro and I do have some sympathy for those that try to earn a living from playing music, as opposed to teaching or, like me, just having fun with jazz. Just don't expect me to listen to the dreaded duos - keyboard and female vocalist with backing tracks - for longer than five minutes. I would rather there be no music at all. Anyway, I'm too busy playing with big bands and a couple of six-piece traditional jazz bands. The real problem in Australian clubs and pubs is the pokies, which have almost killed live music. More power to Senator Fielding!
Grah Jive Talk
"Don't worry baby, they'll swing their arses off."
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 131 |
Graham... I totally agree with you regarding NS's bass RealTracks... they were basically unusable to me. I do 90% swing tunes, and was so dissatisfied with the swing bass (& much of the guitar), I returned the 2011 package, and am back using 2008..
I do take offense at your statement "Just don't expect me to listen to the dreaded duos - keyboard and female vocalist with backing tracks - for longer than five minutes. I would rather there be no music at all".
I am a kybd player and my wife is the vocalist - our song selection, arrangements, and BIAB backing tracks are complimented at every gig by "non-pros" (as you describe yourself), as well as other REAL musicians. I would love to work with a bass player & drummer, but no one wants to work for $50/gig... So unless you are 'out there' as working musician....
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92
Enthusiast
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Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 92 |
dmrodes...I couldn't have said it better. I too get the same compliments from musicians and non-musicians about the real tracks. Where do you and your wife gig?
Jakob
Dell Studio 16 Laptop i7 with 256 gig SSD
BIAB, Reaper, Encore, Sibelius
Roland SD-50
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Happy New Year!
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Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
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