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I would like a MIDI only BIAB as before the Real Invasion  with the option to not even download the Real tracks and Instruments but with the relevant program core improvements. I have worked with MIDI since the late 1980's and find the Real stuff limiting for the way I write and produce my songs. Just my opinion as I anticipate many will strongly disagree, but maybe not comment. I still haven't even scratched the surface of the multitude of MIDI styles and realise that PG Music are sadly now heading away from the way I work. BIAB will always be a great program tho' and be the first I use once I have written a song.
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A BIG +1
Realtracks is a tool I use occasionally, mostly for a few clients who are country and western people, and RTs save me a ton of time. However for most all of my work I use midi and it saddens me the way PG is moving away from midi, or at least not improving midi in BiaB.
I can understand from a business point of view why the emphasis is on RTs. However outside of this forum midi is still king.
Just my two cents.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Keeping multiple versions of a program for the sake of old technology make this a dream. Anything in the midi standard can run 32 tracks on a Pentium or less, probably even a 386.
It's not been updated, and it's limitations are severe. I'd suggest finding out the very best midi compliant keyboards for which there are patch maps and buying those as the prices plummet.
The 'I gotta have midi' guys seem to be mostly the ones who want to make a backing track sound exactly like the original, program all the signature licks. One band in town has an older guy who is still using Atari and has duplicated stuff like Brittany Spears and the guys come on with the lead singer dressed in drag right down to pigtails and the song sounds amazing. But what's the market. I hired them for a convention, 5 guys and had to pay 700 bucks for two 45 minute shows. That was 7 years ago, but now that has to be 1200 or more. They get 10 gigs a year I hear. So your income is what?
Roll your midi track for Chestnuts Roasting, and I'll roll a backing track with RealTracks. My work will take 15 minutes. And then we get them 'tested'. I think PG with RealTracks and John pushing buttons is going to blow the midi out of the water, especially if we say you have only 12 hours working time to produce it from the same starting point.
I have a lot of midi. EWI gizmo, keyboards, a big Yamaha organ in the garage with midi on it, 2 external midi modules, but I use them less and less. The Ketron SD2 is great, but I don't think I've used it in 6 months and it's hooked to Band in a Box and once in a while I click the melody on to check something and I tweak a note, but then I shut it down again.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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whats happening John Im agreeing with you again Frankie
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Quote:
Keeping multiple versions of a program for the sake of old technology make this a dream.
I will respectfully disagree with you. If midi is such an old technology how come Kontakt, Stephen Slate drums, Sampletank and a ton of other midi programs are selling so well?
Personally I do more covers with RTs than with midi right now! I am not one of those guys who do covers exactly as the originals.
I use midi because I can get it to do what I want when I want in my original work. I can’t do that with RTs.
Getting better midi sounds costs a lot more than RTs but it still is a viable way to go. There is plenty of room for both technologies to co-exist. I use both however I believe that midi is getting the short end of the stick here. All I’m asking for is more midi styles, more than one midi out port and better midi resolution in BiaB.
I hope this explains where I’m coming from.
Principal: Your child always causes trouble in school.
Me: My child causes trouble at home, do I ever call you?
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Since getting the 2009 version of BIAB, I've fiddled with MIDI tracks, but always been disappointed in the sound. It seems there's level of "cheese" to them that's hard to overcome. RealTracks always sound so much better to me. Then again, I was over at my parent's house the other day, and my Mom pulled out a cassette recording I'd done as a Father's Day present. It was made over a decade ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday - BIAB running my JV-80, me hunched down, holding a cassette recorder next to my crappy little amp and singing away... Good times!  What really struck me was how good the instruments sounded - especially the acoustic bass. It's funny how sometimes your eyes tell you ears what they're hearing. I think it's a bit early to write off MIDI. Even now, if I want to get orchestral strings, MIDI is still my only option. It would be nice if MIDI tracks were available in the same way as RealTracks are. It would also be nice if I could attach different VSTi's to different tracks.
-- David Cuny My virtual singer development blogVocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?BiaB 2025 | Windows 11 | Reaper | Way too many VSTis.
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I, too, strongly support midi. It might be considered "old" technology by some but the reason that it's stayed around so long is because it offers something that other things cannot. Maybe when electronics is enhanced sufficiently so that the end "sound box" that the midi commands drive has incredibly realistic sounds at a much more affordable price, the pendulum will swing back the other way. Interestingly, I could feed midi input from BIAB into this electronic organ by Yamaha and get some pretty excellent output. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caVUb4x4_ys&feature=relatedOr maybe Yamaha's Tyros 4 (which I'd just love to get my hands on and hook up to BIAB!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PnhK6RBfw4&feature=relatedUnfortunately the YouTube encoding has reduced the realism but I think you'll be able to hear what I mean. Noel
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Quote:
The 'I gotta have midi' guys seem to be mostly the ones who want to make a backing track sound exactly like the original, program all the signature licks.
A rather contentious remark in my opinion, one could say that using Real Tracks etc stifles creativity, by the same logic.
Quote:
Roll your midi track for Chestnuts Roasting, and I'll roll a backing track with RealTracks. My work will take 15 minutes. And then we get them 'tested'. I think PG with RealTracks and John pushing buttons is going to blow the midi out of the water, especially if we say you have only 12 hours working time to produce it from the same starting point
If you want to do it that way great, do so, I see no problems with that BUT it is not the way I, for example, work. Hence my suggestion for this post.
There are many free vsti's that sound amazing. EMU Proteus, UVI workstation, Independence Free,HEAD Acoustic guitar, even Native Instruments have player versions of Kontakt, Kore and Reactor and all editable to some extent. Fruity loops has an amazing selection of sounds (I have bought the producer version but one can use it as a vsti without purchase). I too have used and discarded many expander boxes over the years and agree that the sounds are "cheesy".
The sounds of the Real Tracks ARE good, I cannot dispute that but I like to personalise my music which I cannot do with them but I can do with MIDI. Before BIAB I wrote/programed every part I couldn't play and still input "my signature licks" to this day.
An current example of how good Real Tracks can sound is IMHO "Oh me oh my" by Sundance.
And Hawgly DRiddle Noel96, George Nelson etc etc. In fact all the posted songs sound good but I couldn't have done the few songs I have posted, to MY satisfaction, with the Real stuff.
I am not saying the direction PG Music is going is wrong, I am just asking if I/we could have a "stripped down" MIDI version.
I will never stop using BIAB and may end up not upgrading and sticking to 2010, just as I did with Cubase SX1 as their "advancements" to SX5 did not improve MY way of writing and producing.
Alyn
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Sorry but the first link is definitely faked up - he does not have enough fingers and toes. Its all cheesy too. Nice facial expressions, but there is a backing track in operation.
Second one is OK - ish
I have lots of MIDI software and non of it comes close to Real Tracks no matter how hard I try to program.
Just my opinion
Last edited by ZeroZero; 12/06/10 04:59 AM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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I also wish there was a MIDI only BIAB.
RealTracks reminds me of auditioning generic musicians.
For musicians with MIDI drumkits, MIDI wind instruments, MIDI Guitarsists to keyboad players, RealTracks are of no use. More instrument controllers keep coming out. Just as more software synths and sounds keep coming. With everything going Digital putting musicians out of work, from Jingles and Hit songs to TV and Movie soundtracks, there is more of a future still using MIDI.
However, I do think RealTracks is useful to many BIAB users now.
I apologize if I offended anyone, including PG Music.
Wayne, (I still use Jammer Pro also)
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There is a midi only version. It's called 2008, and 2007 and version 12. I have all of these.
I should put them up for sale. I think about $50. each is fair.
No Realtracks, no Realtracks engine, no RealBand, just plain old Bland in a Box.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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far as i know the new version will do midi only if'n ya want it to
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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Quote:
There is a midi only version. It's called 2008, and 2007 and version 12. I have all of these.
I should put them up for sale. I think about $50. each is fair.
No Realtracks, no Realtracks engine, no RealBand, just plain old Bland in a Box
John Conley: words fail me with that childish remark but then this is the anonymous internet. And it is also the sort of reply I have come to expect from you. Only an ignorant man ridicules that which he does not understand.
Quote:
far as i know the new version will do midi only if'n ya want it to
Robh: thank you for stating the obvious and for also not understanding the reasoning behind my post as PG Music are focusing on the "Real experience" and I just wished for a MIDI only version.
Oh well, I can but wait and see and thus end my involvement with this post.
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Hi ZeroZero Quote:
Sorry but the first link is definitely faked up - he does not have enough fingers and toes. Its all cheesy too. Nice facial expressions, but there is a backing track in operation.
I'd be incredibly surprised if this was faked. Max Takano was Yamaha's premier showcase musician. I've seen him perform and, in real life, he sounds much better what you hear in this video clip. It's a pity that sound quality suffers so much on Youtube. Some of these electronic organ players can do amazing things. Over the years, I have seen and heard some incredible performances. If you watch the program changes, it's possible to see that he's changing between a lot of registrations to get the effect he's achieving.
If you're interested to see what I mean about spectacular performances, have a look at Ethel Smith in the below clip - somewhere back in the 1940s, I believe. Ethel was a very famous concert organist and she specialized in the Hammond B3. This organ didn't have the orchestral sounds that the Yamaha ELX above had.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x33d3x_ethel-smith-tico-tico-hammond-organ_school
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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gibson, i was not trying to be a pain, or offensive, just realistic. Do you expect PG to design a completely different version of the program, that goes away from their current business model? They have spent three plus years in the development of Realtracks, and Realdrums. Why would they go backwards to a model that they feel is obsolete?
With the current version you have a choice of Realtracks audio or midi tracks. You can choose which, you are not forced to use RTs, they are an option. If you look closely at BiaB it is still very based in midi, and midi is at the heart of Both RB and PTPA.
There are literally dozens of midi programs out there that have no answer to the RT concept. This is PG's focus and future. I would venture that this is only a starting point, and it will continue to grow and develop. Midi however is simple and is always going to be there as an option.
Use it, and enjoy. Look at it this way, when you build a song, the program offers RT options to you, maybe you do not want them and wish that only the midi was available. But what about the RT guy that has to remove or replace midi tracks to use all RTs? Should PG make an all RT version to make them happy?
This is a great software, with a ton of options. use the ones you want. To me that is obvious. With respect, Rob
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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I've kept out of this but perhaps now is the time to comment. I too am mostly happy with a MIDI solution though I do also enjoy the RT's I have.
However perhaps the answer is simply a purchase option that doesn't include any RT's. Same BIAB, just no RT's included and have a somewhat more budget price for it. If you later want to include RT's it's then just a matter of purchasing them.
No special version of the software or anything, just a packaging alternative.
Maybe a menu toggle somewhere to turn off RT options is you want to simplify the menus... A nicety but not really necessary.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Yeh I know I can turn of the RT's because that is what I do know and all is good with BIAB. I do not want them to transfer their development from RT's to MIDI . I would just like to be able to NOT download all the RT's in the 1st place but STILL get the MIDI files that appear in the style maker for the new styles when the RT's are turned off. that's all. Is that even possible, no one has jumped to say if it is possible or not? I wish everybody a Happy Christmas but I know some will not be that lucky BUT would you have given me this response for that wish of mine, in the off topic forum?? After it was only a wish like I wish I was 2 inches taller then I would not be overweight for my height
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Hi gibson,
I have all the MIDI styles and the latest in my collection is Disk #77 (UK Pop). On BIAB version 2011, this information is accessed via Stylepicker >> Filter >> Show all style disks. As far as I know, there haven't been any additional styles for a little while now. Since the Realtracks are musical phrases, how they play is not determined by a particular style.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Gibson, if your theory is correct then I need to be 6 inches taller!
Here's hopin'
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
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This is an interesting philosophical discussion, one that will remain philosophical without knowing the inside scoop on PG Music's marketing results over the long run.
I have worked for several years with churches that have no musicians, convincing them to switch to BIAB rather than other options such as DVD worship. One selling point has always been low entry-level price--not really any more.
Churches are reluctant enough to drop a couple hundred in a MegaPAK BIAB 12.0 that will require at least one quasi-musically-inclined person to operate effectively. Double that initial investment for a BIAB 2011 EverythingPAK and what I am hearing is, "Cool tool!" Unfortunately, that does not translate into money changing hands. In fact, there is a somewhat backflow negative in that these folks, once hearing RealTracks, they wouldn't want to settle for a MIDI-only option, but aren't willing to pay for the full-blown product either.
Don't misunderstand me. BIAB is NOT overpriced for what you get (I can already imagine such responses...). It is expensive for an organization having to invest in BIAB plus the computer system in which it resides, and the sound system upgrade they desperately need, then balance this against every other ministry priority on the list...
Quite a dilemma...so much so, in fact, that I am declaring defeat in this whole pursuit. I no longer believe that BIAB is useful to churches without musicians--far too great an investment in a tool that will most likely sit unused after a year or two.
Joel
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