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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hi all. Just received my Biab Ultra Pak preinstalled on 160GB HDD. Checked the drive parameters before running anything off of it. To my great surprise, the partition offset is misaligned. The starting offset is 31K. Because of hard disk architecture, the starting offset on disk partitions should be 1024k (or more as long as it's divisible by 512k).
The problem, in short, is that misaligned disk partitions cause the disk heads to have to work harder resulting in a significant loss of performance. Needless to say, we all want our DAWs to run as efficiently as possible.
Anyone planning on running all or any portion of biab (like real tracks) from the PG Music pre-installed disk would be wise to check the disk's alignment. Misalignment will result in significant performance loss. Partition starting offset can be read in windows explorer >all programs >accessories >system tools >system information.
This is a well known problem with earlier Microsoft operating systems. Microsoft itself recognized the problem and corrected it years ago in subsequent Windows operating systems (like Vista, Windows 7). The newer MS operating systems now default format the partition starting offset at 1024k - properly aligned.
To PG Music - I suspect you folks are installing the biab hard drives - or at least formatting the disks you're installing it on - with the older MS operating systems resulting in the misaligned starting offset I see on my Biab 2011 UltraPak just received. I can't report on the partition offsets of anyone else's Biab HDD, but the one I just received >is mis-aligned<. I was planning on running Biab off of the pre-installed drive. I consider this to be defective and would like to have a replacement with my Biab 2011 UltraPak on a properly aligned drive.
For those out there that just >have< to know, here's a more detailed explanation of the problem:
A disk's architecture is built using 64 sector tracks. In earlier operating systems Microsoft decided to use the first 63 sectors for the disk structure information when creating a partition. Thereafter creating partitions starting at the beginning of sector 64. This is a problem because the next track starts one more sector over at the beginning of sector 65.
Starting the beginning of a partition at sector 64 causes an extra I/O for the drive mechanism while it writes or reads a 4k block of data spread across a barrier of two tracks at the boundary of sectors 64 & 65.
The system uses the first 63 sectors for it's internal information (MBR, disk geometry, etc). Windows then writes data in blocks of 4096 bytes to the next available free sectors - starting at sector 64 - the first 512bytes of data is written to that sector then all writing stops because the mechanism has reached the end of the current track, which then positions itself at the beginning of the next track and continues to write the remaining 3584bytes of the 4096bytes of data in one operation and will continue to do so until the next track boundary. If the mechanism could write the entire data into one track beginning at sector 65 then the drive would complete the task in one operation. With this misalignment flaw writing or reading data that crosses the track boundary takes two operations to accomplish, which now happens at every track boundary until the alignment is fixed.
Cheers (don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger!)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I consider this to be defective and would like to have a replacement with my Biab 2011 UltraPak on a properly aligned drive.
This is a user forum, contact PG directly either by phone or email.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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All good here on my PG supplied HD.
Partician Starting Offset : 32,256
BIAB – 2026, Reaper (current), i7-12700F Processor, 32GB DDR4-3200MHz RAM, Motu Audio Express 6x6 - My SoundCloud.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Lawrence,
Why don't you just copy everything off the drive to another drive, repartition the drive, and then move everything back?
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
This is a user forum, contact PG directly either by phone or email.
Bob
I'm a user and have also contacted PG directly. They read the boards, too. 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
Lawrence,
Why don't you just copy everything off the drive to another drive, repartition the drive, and then move everything back?
Gary
Hi Gary. Thought of that. Can that be done - no copy protection? Besides that, transferring the data back and forth would void the warranty if the drive failed in the future, wouldn't it?
Lawrence
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
All good here on my PG supplied HD.
Partician Starting Offset : 32,256
Sorry, you're misaligned. Bytes and kb are different.
Here's an alignment calculator:
http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/other/157
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Don't think anything on the drive is copy protected. You should be able to move it off and on like any other drive.
PG Music doesn't do the copy protection thing, they trust their customers to abide by the TOS and EULA.
Gary
I'm blessed watching God do what He does best. I've had a few rough years, and I'm still not back to where I want to be, but I'm on the way and things are looking far better now than what they were!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I notice that 32,256/512 = 63.
(The numerator and denominator are in bytes. There is no need to convert to kilobytes because then the same multiplication factor occurs on the the top and bottom of the fraction and cancels out.)
The above number seems to be right at home with the 64 and 65 that are quoted above.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
[
Bytes and kb are different.
Here's an alignment calculator:
http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/other/157
To be properly aligned the partition starting offset should be 1024 >kilo bytes< or a number divisible by 512 >kilo bytes<.
1 >kilo byte< = 1024 >bytes<
1024 >kilo bytes< = 1048576 >bytes<
Yeah, it's a little confusing. The figure shown in windows "system info" starting partition offset is in >bytes<. Convert >bytes< to >kilo bytes<. If partition starting offsets in >kilo bytes< are divisible by 512 >kilo bytes< then partitions are properly aligned.
32256 bytes = 31.5 kilo bytes = misaligned starting partition offset. This is the partition starting offset of my new Biab 2011 UltraPak on HDD = misaligned!
Here's a data conversion calculator so you don't have to do the math:
http://www.ez-calculators.com/computer-data-conversion-calculators-2.htm
Lawrence
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I notice that 32,256/512 = 63.
Exactly the problem! A disk's architecture is built using >>>>64<<<<< sector tracks. In earlier operating systems Microsoft decided to use the first 63 sectors for the disk structure information when creating a partition. Thereafter creating partitions starting at the beginning of sector 64. This is a problem because the >>>>next track starts one more sector over at the beginning of sector 65.<<<<
Starting the beginning of a partition at sector 64 - at the end of the track - causes an extra in/out operation for the drive mechanism. It has to write or read a 4kb (4096 bytes) block of data spread across a barrier of two tracks at the track boundary between sectors 64 & 65. Read / write to sector 64 - stop, reposition to the next track (starting at sector 65) - continue the read / write operation.
Last edited by Lawrence.1955; 12/10/10 01:19 AM.
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Quote:
Hi Gary. Thought of that. Can that be done - no copy protection? Besides that, transferring the data back and forth would void the warranty if the drive failed in the future, wouldn't it?
Copying will work. PGMusic do not cripple this ability. I always make backups of my USB program disks by simply copying one to the other and I always test that the copy works fine. Make sure, though, that you have "Show hidden files and folders" on when you copy because there could be hidden files and these will not copy if they are not made visible.
It be highly unusual if the process of copying would void a warranty because the whole purpose of a disk drive is to copy to and from; that's what it's designed for. So, if you're using it and it's doing what it's designed for, there will not be any warranty issues. If you get a screwdriver and pull it to bits, though, then the warranty would be void.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Hi Lawrence, Here's a web page that I've found about partition misalignment. It explains it very well. http://www.storagereview.com/impact_misalignmentIf I am interpreting this and your information correctly, the problem is related to hard drives that operate beyond a physical sector size of 512 bytes (say 4K sectors). This interpretation is also supported by Microsoft at http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929491From what I can find, the RAID disk to which the MS article refers also has 4K sectors. I notice, from using System Information, that my USB drive from PG Music has a physical sector size of 512 bytes. As previously mentioned, 32,256/512 = 63. Further investigation reveals that these 63 sectors (with a physical sector size of 512 bytes) are perfectly normal; my USB drive is operating exactly the way that Windows was designed to operate and on a sector size that is a perfect fit for this operating system. If, however, my USB drive had a different sector size (e.g. 4K), then (from what I read) I would have potential alignment issues. At the moment, though, it seems that all is well for me. Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
The problem, in short, is that misaligned disk partitions cause the disk heads to have to work harder resulting in a significant loss of performance. Needless to say, we all want our DAWs to run as efficiently as possible.
Not sure how serious that 'problem' is. Do you have references and links to benchmarks?
Just checked the offset of my system disks here on a Vista system -> similar to your complained figures ... you said Microsoft corrected the problem with Vista an Win7 (?).
Martin
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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This is a serious issue for 4K-sector hard drives only, such as those produced by Western Digital using "advanced format" drives. For most other hard drives using a 512B sector size, there is no problem. Windows7 has a 512B emulation mode for "misaligned" and legacy drives. Linux and MacOS have no issues since this is a NTFS problem.
The problem is that, for 4K-sector hard drives, buffer reads and writes are in 4K blocks, not 512B blocks. If there is a misalignment in sectors to blocks, then the overlap forces two block reads for every sector read. This results in potentially doubling the duty time of the hard drive unit.
However, for legacy drives, reads of 512B sectors in 512B block sizes are always aligned.
One exception is Solid-State (SSD) units that can be helped through alignment in that they are advanced-format as well. Paragon Software provides an alignment tool (Paragon Alignment Tool [PAT]) that can be purchased online. Western Digital provides PAT free of charge, branded for their hard drives.
Joel
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Im so glad Im just a basic songwriter who uses biab as I find it.In other words I havent the faintest idea what you are all talking about.Sgt Pepper was recorded on 8 track with none of the techno we have today and is regarded as the greatest ever album(yeah I know some here might differ)but thats by most musicians and record producers etc.Im not saying I dont like new technology I do but sometimes it gets in the way of our creative juices.. a bit like the red tape you find in government departments.BIAB 2011 is another step up in giving us songwriters and musicians another push to get things done and having already started when I got BIAB 2010 now this has turned up Im just putting down some chords on a new song knowing there are some more great soloists to listen to and enjoy.Cheers Frankie
AMD Athlon 7550 dual core
processor 2.51 ghz
1 87 gb ram
windows 7 Ultimate
yamaha rev 500 effects
tacam DP-24 DAW
Samson Resolv NF monitors
Yamaha PSR-620 Keyboard
Fender semi accoustic guitar
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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OP
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Quote:
Copying will work. PGMusic do not cripple this ability. I always make backups of my USB program disks by simply copying one to the other and I always test that the copy works fine. Make sure, though, that you have "Show hidden files and folders" on when you copy because there could be hidden files and these will not copy if they are not made visible.
Thanks for that info. I'll ask PGMusic if making a backup copy is ok. If so, one could make a back-up file, re-partition the disk, align the partition offset and restore the back-up to the aligned partition / drive.
Some cloning/copy software will destroy the aligned partition just made and create a new, misaligned partition. I've used Drive Image XML to successfully restore an image to a re-aligned partition / drive and It doesn't change the partition offset.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Do a search for HDClone 3.9 freeware from Miray Software. It will allow you to clone a hard drive while preserving, even adjusting to correct if necessary, the 4K boundary.
Joel
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Quote:
Im so glad Im just a basic songwriter who uses biab as I find it.In other words I havent the faintest idea what you are all talking about...
Frankie, this has nothing to do with BIAB, at least not directly. This issue is a hard disk problem that happens when you partition a hard drive using Windows XP or earlier. There is a legacy (no longer necessary) gap inserted at the beginning of the hard drive that causes problems for new hard drives that use advanced format (4K sectors and blocks) features.
You are correct in that few people understand this issue. That does not prevent the sky from falling on Henny-Pennies, however. This only helps Western Digital--they have the solution for all our falling sky problems; interesting, eh?
Joel
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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Hello Lawrence,
Thank you for the details. We'll research this.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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