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Hi all. Well way after the fact, I finally am taking piano lessons at age 71. Maybe there's still some hope for this old trumpet player? Anyway, I just bought an Alesis q25 keyboard/midi controller. The price was only $59 and it has full size keys (we also have a piano and yamaha dgx 500 keyboard). It came with Ableton Live Lite. It took me some time to get everything installed and working. I've started going through the tutorials which are pretty good, IMO. Up to now, I've been using BIAB and RB. I also have Wavepad which I use once in awhile. I still have a lot to learn about BIAB and RB and have been using RB mainly as my DAW. I'm really a rookie on the sound stuff and have a long way to go. My question is about continuing with Ableton. It does seem like a powerful and complex program from my perspective, at least. I can see many hours invested in learning before even doing simple stuff with it. I didn't buy the keyboard because it had this Ableton DAW with it. So, I would have no problem at all removing it from my laptop. In fact, it installed both the lite and new versions as separate programs and I sure don't need both. Should I just dump it?
Although I have a paid version of Wavepad, I'm not totally happy with it either because NCH Software charges for every upgrade and I don't see any major features added such as PG Music does either. I think that when I got my UA-4x (used with my SD2), it came with a daw--maybe sonic or cubase. That could be a demo version though. I would like something simple and I don't mind paying a few bucks. However, I think that there are a lot of programs out there that try to be all things to all people that are probably too many for me to learn/need. Any suggestions for a simpleton's daw? Thanks.
Stan
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My advice would be to stay with RealBand until such time as you know specifically what you need in a DAW that you cannot do in RealBand. Any DAW can do the job, but all of them are complex and will take quite an investment in time to master.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Thanks Matt. Your suggestion is logical and practical. I have already used Wavepad for editing some .wav files taken from cds by combining and adding segues. It just seemed easier for me to do in Wavepad than RB. I'm thinking about Reaper, but know little about it. I think one issue may be in using asio. I've been using mme with no problems so maybe I should not go to asio with my older laptop?
Stan
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Until you need ASIO, stick with MME. ASIO adds extra load to the system, and if you don't need it why add the extra load and complicate things?
Do you have some sort of aversion to RB? It works very well in conjunction with BiaB, so would be a logical next step until you find a reason to need something else. I doubt that'll happen for years, and you'll not find better support for a DAW than here.
Your UA-4x "Supports WDM, ASIO 2.0, and Mac OS X Core Audio" so I bet you can use it in Realband.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Another vote for continuing with RealBand.
Ableton is most suited for live disc-jockey mixing, and loop sequencing.
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By the way, WavePad is a nice little free audio editor. A few years ago, my wife asked me to recommend an easy-to-understand editor that had versions for both the PC and the Mac. I set her up with WavePad, one of only a few that support both platforms.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Stan i have played the rotating DAW game for years I always seem to want a better mouse trap, thinking each will totally fill my needs. I started in Cakewalk years ago, then bought and became fairly good at Acid Pro, then moved to N-track, found it unstable on my system. Bought Multitrackstudios at the suggestion of Mac, found it to be the most stable DAW i have ever seen, and very simple and powerful, still i wanted more (naturally!!!) bought BiaB, and PTPA, never used PT much till recently, but loved BiaB. Then on an upgrade got the first version of RB. Loved it! Recently i tried Reaper again after deleting it due to stability issues. I was looking for something a bit more feature rich for a few needs. Wow that is a freakin lot of software to manage and update. I still have Cakewalk MC5 on my system, i bought it for the TTS synth.
Now what do I do, i could drive myself crazy trying to figure out which does what better, and why! Kind of like putting someone in a round room and telling them to stand in the corner!
So the conclusion is that i am going to use BiaB as my scratch pad of thought, and RB as my primary DAW to take those thoughts to fruition. What ever i can't do in RB, I.E, automation, certain plugins, will be done in either MTS or Reaper the verdict is still out there. While i favor MTS, as it is still the most stable DAW i have ever seem, and it is very feature rich, and has very powerful plugins included, I do find Reaper very powerful, and so unbelievably flexible, and by the way stable for me now (version 3.75) that i am fooling around with it some.
Moral of the story after all this rambling If your needs are simple, and you just want to play and track, and make a few cool songs, any DAW will work for you, find one that make sense to your needs and learn it very well. Unless you are one of those that have to have everything there is no need to have the latest and greatest. I see folks on the forums like Sonar and Reaper, clamoring for the DAW to do stuff i do not even know what it means, and rattling off feature request that boggle my mind. I want to spend more time recording and less time trying to make the program do really crazy stuff.
Side note I still have a deep seated desire to have Sonar X-1, and Cubase 6! Why i am worried this is a sickness, DAW fever! I need a cure! it is somewhere between the rockin' pneumonia & the boogie woogie flu, and the GAS syndrone! Turn back man, before it's too late!!!
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2025, Realband, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 9 32c , Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app.
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Quote:
.....snip.....
Moral of the story after all this rambling If your needs are simple, and you just want to play and track, and make a few cool songs, any DAW will work for you, find one that make sense to your needs and learn it very well. Unless you are one of those that have to have everything there is no need to have the latest and greatest. I see folks on the forums like Sonar and Reaper, clamoring for the DAW to do stuff i do not even know what it means, and rattling off feature request that boggle my mind. I want to spend more time recording and less time trying to make the program do really crazy stuff.
Side note I still have a deep seated desire to have Sonar X-1, and Cubase 6! Why i am worried this is a sickness, DAW fever! I need a cure! it is somewhere between the rockin' pneumonia & the boogie woogie flu, and the GAS syndrone! Turn back man, before it's too late!!!
Thanks Robh. Sorry to say that I have been trapped in a similar way of thinking in the past. For some of us trumpet players, it's called the "mouthpiece safari"---the next mp we try will be be the very best and solve our playing problems----Not! I really appreciate yours and everyone else's comments and that's why I posted on here. Since I've already bought WavePad, I'll just continue to use it since it's pretty simple. As to using Real Band as a DAW, I don't have a problem with it and hope that I didn't create the impression that I don't like it because I do. Actually Gary C. was very kind and helped me get started with it a couple of years ago. I've mostly done midi stuff with it though. I don't think I've ever imported a .wav or .mp3 file except for real tracks. Sure will be a lot easier to learn how to do that than to learn an entirely new DAW program. I have no desire to become a DAW collector
Matt....I don't know what happened with wavepad. Maybe it was because I went from XP to win 7, but I had to pay for an upgrade even though I had already purchased Wavepad previously. The same thing happened with some other pgms that I had bought from them. I replaced those with other freebies. The only real problem I have with Wavepad is getting rid of "pops" and trying to get things "smoothed" out with cut and paste. Can't seem to get it right yet. Again, your suggestions are valued by me. Thanks! 
Stan
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Stan, just to be clear, I use Adobe Audition for audio editing. This is what used to be the free Cool Edit, then Cool Edit Pro of fifteen ago. It has superb noise reduction features (the only thing reputedly better is by Izotope). As far as cut and paste, all editors are pretty much the same, as long as you zoom into the waveform far enough and cut only at the zero crossings. Your editor should have a function to find them.
I stay with Audition, and SONAR, because they are what I learned first. Although I have used several other DAWs (Pro Tools, Digital Performer), and audio editors (Sound Forge) I see no sense in learning the subtleties of other software when I know one or two over two decades worth. For people just starting out, RealBand is a very good choice to start with.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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It's hard to say what's "simple", because what makes sense to one person might be the wrong way around for another. It also depends on what "basic" functions you want the DAW to do. For simple, I'd say that RealBand is probably as good as it gets. For simple audio editing, Audacity is free and easy.
I really liked the workflow for Traction - it "made sense" pretty quickly. Getting software that has a workflow that works well for you is really important. Reaper is my DAW of choice - nice price, great free documentation, very active developers, and (most importantly) an excellent support community.
But if you just want to get into a DAW, I agree that learning RealBand is the best place to start.
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Quote:
Stan, just to be clear, I use Adobe Audition for audio editing. This is what used to be the free Cool Edit, then Cool Edit Pro of fifteen ago. It has superb noise reduction features (the only thing reputedly better is by Izotope). As far as cut and paste, all editors are pretty much the same, as long as you zoom into the waveform far enough and cut only at the zero crossings. Your editor should have a function to find them.
I will guardedly disagree here. I thought the same thing until I started using Tracktion. The built-in non-destructive audio editing features from the version 5+ years ago still have yet to be copied or are just now showing up in some of the big shot programs.
Case and point: Edit down a 1 hour speech to 20 minutes without losing the context and content, but remove pregnant pauses, repetitive statements, etc.
In an hour, I probably had 50 or 60 cuts to the content. To zoom in on zero crossings simply was going to take WAY too much time.
In Tracktion, with a single 'track', when you cut the track into more than one pieces, these become 'clips'. Pregnant pauses - zap that clip. Coughs, editing for content, zap those clips as well. If you hang the beginning of a following 'clip' onto the end of the previous clip, an automatic option comes up in the lower screen context "Auto-cross-fade". That single feature alone saved me hours of editing time - literally. Interestingly enough, none of the cross-fading is destructive. They are simply a flavor of a volume envelope change. If you want to do the fading manually; every clip has a discreet little graphic fade envelope on the beginning and end of the clip. Grab the little icon, drag for how long you want the fade to apply, pick what fade type you want and voila. Totally non-destructive and takes zero time to 'apply'.
In nearly every other audio 'editor' program I've used, gain changes like this are usually destructive; requiring one to keep copies of backups at each revision, taking up disc space, etc.
Just one example.
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That's a very good point, Scott.
If I wanted to do non-destructive editing, I would use SONAR. You are correct, I was commenting about destructive editors only.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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I went back and took another look at Reaper. You can download it for free for the 1st 30 days with all features enabled. I figure there's nothing to lose to try it, so why not? It took me a few tries to get midi i/o working. I like the interface better than Wavepad and Reaper handles midi better also--but not as good as Real Band, IMO. If I decided to buy Reaper, it's only $40 and that includes a couple of future upgrades. It looks like Reaper has a helpful forum. It will take me some time to get really going with it because I'll be using mostly RB and BIAB for my major projects. Reaper does have some neat features and the pgm size is way smaller than Ableton Live, partly because there are no libraries. Time will tell.
I had no idea, when I first bought biab 4-5 years ago, that sound was this complex. I guess most of us just never thought of it that way and we took everything for granted. So much to learn........ Thanks again to everyone for your valuable suggestions/comments.
Stan
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Stan, since you're not familiar with this stuff, reread what Scott wrote about non-destructive editing. That is really a big deal if you're doing a lot of it. I've also worked with Adobe Audition for years and become quite good at finding those crossfade loop points to eliminate pops. What Scott is talking about is the difference between actually cutting out part of the waveform and simply lowering the volume to silence the part you don't want to hear in a non-destructive way. Doing the volume thing eliminates any possibility of pop noises but is a bear to do manually. Traction does it automatically and that is very cool. Audition creates a new backup file after every edit and when I go to close it I have to wait while it goes through a very elobarate "flushing un-needed files" dance and I have to think about each one. If I really want to save the edit then the original version is gone unless I specifically save it. That can take 30 minutes or more. I don't know how Reaper handles that. Traction is or was very affordable because they had a $19.95 sale going on a few months ago. Full list price for it was $299 I think but it's almost an orphan program now so it's probably available somewhere as a close out for low cost. Scott is our resident expert with that program and there's a few other threads talking about it, just do a forum search using the keyword "Traction".
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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That's good added info about editing from Bob. If I had learned to do audio editing when there was non-destructive editing, it could have saved me an occasional error. At this point, with over two decades of experience, I'm pretty confident in my editing skills, but it still is nice to know I could use a different program to edit without changing the original file.
I first learned to edit by spicing audio tape. Talk about destructive.
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Thank you gentlemen. I guess I'll show my ignorance and say that I had not even thought of getting rid of pops using volume rather than cutting. This points out my lazy way of learning; I look in the index rather than reading the complete manual. However, as an old guy, I'm sure that even if I read the whole manual, I would forget a lot. To make things even worse, I'm more of a visual learner than an auditory learner. Having read that learning new things helps out with dementia and Alzheimers, I'm inclined to just keep learning as long as I can.
Stan
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Quote:
However, as an old guy, I'm sure that even if I read the whole manual, I would forget a lot.
Stan, I don't believe that for one second unless you actually have a verified medical condition that affects your brain. Otherwise, nothing's changed it's simply a matter of motivation. If you want it bad enough, you will learn it. Many articles have been written in professional journals about how musicians seem to have much less problems with dementia than the average Joe. The reason to me is obvious. Playing an instrument at a fairly high level really exercises the brain. You're forced to think about a whole host of abstract concepts and coordinate it physically. That's got to be good for you so you've got to keep playing until you just can't anymore and learning about some new software to help you with that is perfect. It's a new thing but it involves something you love doing. There's your motivation.
Obviously this is just an internet forum and we don't know each other but I hate it when Seasoned Citizens joke or make comments about getting old and forgetful. Sometimes it's true and that's sad but a lot of times it's just them buying into the stereotypical hype. Keep saying it long enough and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. You write very well with organized thoughts, doesn't seem like you have that kind of problem to me. So, as I said to my one-legged wife Peg, hop to it! 
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Bob. I guess I said that with a little tongue in cheek. Whatever is inside me will not let me stop learning or trying new things. I hope that will keep me going. However, even though I remember some music from my teen years. I can play from a chart 20 times and still not have the entire music committed to memory. Sorry to say, but the mind does change over the years. If you are old and can improv.....Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Stan
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Nothing like being there, eh Stan?  Don S.
Last edited by Curmudgeon; 04/26/11 03:55 PM.
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Quote:
Nothing like being there, eh Stan?
Don S.
Well, it's sort of hit and miss for me, Don
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