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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have two questions and they basically center around how BIAB utilizes chords and chord relationships with the Melody and Chord generation tool. I find it a great starting point many times for ideas and it can almost be an electronic collaborator if you will.
First question is...many times I feel there are too many chords within these automatically generated arrangements. Is there a way to dumb them down...let's say like a Beatles style chordal structure of 4 chords for a verse and two chords for a chorus?
Second question is...I've used the Style Wizard with varying and surprising degrees of success from the importing of midi files. What seems to escape me is is...when importing a midi file into the Style Wizard and letting it analyze...I would also hope that it analyzes the general chordal mathematical relationship within that composition and saves it into that style as well. So that way...when trying to generate a new chord and melody arrangement through the Melody and Chord Generation tool and using this newly created style from the imported midi file...BIAB will generate something vaguely similar in nature.
Are either of these two questions a possibility and can some forum user either let me know how to do these two options or point me in the direction of how to figure it out? It would be a HUGE help. I've tried multiple searches in the manual, help files and the forums and I can't find an answer to the way i've phrased it above.
Thanks so much...
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Hi mmm Welcome to the forums. Quote:
...when importing a midi file into the Style Wizard and letting it analyze..
In regard to MIDI chords from files, what you describe maybe able to be fine-tuned using "Import chords from MIDI file" under the File menu. In my opinion, a good starting point would be to set the chord resolution (as highlighted) to 4 beats. (See image below.)
Also, if you click on "Help" at the bottom of the above dialogue box, it will explain the various parameters in much more detail. To my way of thinking, the biggest single parameters that would control your chord output would be: (a) knowing the song's key; (b) setting a resolution for the chords (e.g. 2 beats, 4 beats, etc.); {c} knowing which MIDI channel carried the melody so that this could potentially be excluded from the analysis of the underlying harmony.
As you have already noted, results will vary; sometimes they will be spot on and sometimes not. The reason for this is that music analysis is not always able to be an exact science.
Hope this information helps,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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>>> First question is...many times I feel there are too many chords within these automatically generated arrangements. Is there a way to dumb them down...let's say like a Beatles style chordal structure of 4 chords for a verse and two chords for a chorus?
Different melodists will generate different densities of chords, appropriate to the style. So a jazz melodist will have a lot more chords than a pop melodist will have,
>>> Second question is...I've used the Style Wizard with varying and surprising degrees of success from the importing of midi files. What seems to escape me is is...when importing a midi file into the Style Wizard and letting it analyze...I would also
When we generate a style, there is no information about what type of chords to use with the style. That is a good idea though.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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thanks for the responses...
peter...so there is no way to change the density of chords within a melodist?
let's say taking a early beatles style chord structure (like i said above...4 chords for the a (verse) section and 2 chords for the b (chorus) section...but apply that to a bossa-nova melodist? i've tried to muck about with the melodist editor but i see nothing regarding densities of chords.
with some experimenting today...the closest i've been able to get so far is to import a simplified midi file into the melody track and reharmonize based on that. but that is still extremely hit or miss.
my thoughts are that if a song has a chord structure to it...there is a mathematical relationship between the intervals of the chord structure of the verses and the chorus. (i apologize for my extremely limited musical theory) that interval...depending on how it shifts up or down... can create different feelings. i mean...i guess reharmonizing it can work on the same principle. taking and existing chord progression and shifting it into a different key. i was just thinking that it could auto generate similar feeling chord progression if you could feed in a template for it to analyze.
if you guys could nail something like that it would me mighty impressive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Hello,
Hit the "edit" button in the Melodist box that opens. To the right, there are some parameters that can be changed when generating a melody. You can also select a different melodist (top left of melodist dialog)then the original one. You can use any of the melodists with any style.
I believe there is one named EZ, something along those lines that should play less notes, or try MOR (Middle of the road) one.
You can mix and match in the melodist menu and then hit the edit button to help refine it even more.
Trax
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well...i guess the other problem i'm having trouble getting my head around. i'm not so interested in BIAB generating melodies...but chord progressions. so it's not a case of more or less notes in a melody but more or less chords in a progression. in terms of pop structure...it's a little unorthodox to have as many chords within the verse structure and the chorus structure. sometimes it's cool...but i'm really looking for it tio generate a chord progression with far less chords. is it even possible?
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You don't have to keep what's there. Once it's generated the chords, just listen and take out what you don't like, or add a few of your own here and there. It can be a good starting point, however.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2025/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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The melodist, depending on which one you use, will affect how many chords are generated in your song. The chords are based on the melodist "type."
Trax
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so i guess based on what peter and music trax said above...it's more based on density and percentages then an telling BIAB...come up with an 'exact number of chords'?
if that's the case when editing a melodist...what parameter specifically controls the chord density and if it's a percentage...should it be set to a higher or lower percentage based on what i want to achieve?
i gotta tell you...my desires may be a little self serving (lol) BUT...in terms of BIAB being a 'songwriting' partner...what i'm describing would be a great feature. so much of what is there already is SO close. choosing the key of a song and bpm...and then being able to apply style filters after a chord progression has been generated. but sometimes the chord progressions don't quite feel naturally singer/songwriter'y. it seems like it gets a little rambunctious just cramming as many chord changes within a typical verse section. i get that it's 'artificially' generated and that's where the 'collaboration' comes in. brian eno used to suggest that in collaborating with machines that the human component of the writing partnership would still have to impose a certain bit of it's taste and decision making rationale on what the computer was coming up with.
i want to dumb it down a bit just to make it smarter. make sense?
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
.. but sometimes the chord progressions don't quite feel naturally singer/songwriter'y. it seems like it gets a little rambunctious just cramming as many chord changes within a typical verse section. ...
i want to dumb it down a bit just to make it smarter. make sense?
Totally makes sense to me, minmin. I've also found this to be a limitation for songwriting purposes. It could be that more experienced musicians are better than I at swiftly choosing what can be removed to retain a strong chord pattern, but... what BIAB generates frequently does feel needlessly dense. I wonder, is it a limitation of the software? Could it be that simple chord patterns that "sound good out of the box" are harder to generate than complex ones?
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in reality...if a few of those parameters could be tweaked it could be the ultimate raw material generator.
BIAB: "how about this...and this...and this..."
ME: "yeah...i could work with that...and i hear something here...nah...don't need that part..."
then...you apply some styles to the chord arrangement the computer and you came up with...export the midi file from BIAB into your chosen DAW...and then start the real sculpting.
it's seems to me a MAJOR opportunity for this software to take it out of the karaoke/practice tool that many view it as and create a SERIOUS tool for the songwriters toolbox.
in my mind...it's SOOOOOOOO close right now what i want the program to do.
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i guess the question that's become apparent with spending some more time with BIAB this morning is...there is no easy way to create a melodist file like the style wizard? say...if if have a midi file and have imported a midi melody into the melody slot...where do i go from there?
is there a way for it to analyze the basic chordal attributes of the file and create a template to come with similar variations (i.e. totally new chord progressions)?
if it can't...and i do the analysis...how do i create a melodist that behaves chordally in a similar fashion.
it doesn't seem as straight forward to me as the style wizard...although i could be asking for way more then the program is CURRENTLY capable of.
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and one last point this morning that's become clearer as i try to edit the melodist file.
i view the melody and chordal structure of a song two separate entities that are entwined. at this stage...i'm not that interested in the melody generation but the chordal. it seems to me editing the melodist might be more melody focused with some slight possibility of chordal manipulation but not as much as i would hope for.
do any of the advanced users know how to generate simple chord progressions in a 'pop' sense without being concerned with generating the melodic component?
does any of that make sense?
seems you should generate a progression that works mathmatically (as well as to the ear with the right lifts or drops for the verses and chorus) first THEN you generate a compelling melody over the top (not totally necessary to be self generate as the composer can do that)...THEN you apply the styles to create an arrangement.
does any of that make sense?
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One way to get what you want:
*Type in the chords from an already existing song that has the kind of chord changes you like. Chord changes cannot be copyrighted, so no concern there.
*Experiment with different Styles playing those chords.
*See if you can come up with a style that states those chord changes in a different feel.
--Mac
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This is a fascinating thread. Being a new user, I have been slightly disappointed with the BIAB melodist also. I agree that it generates too many chords. And the chords are too jazzy (unless you are composing jazz). Some of the simpler virtual composers generate lower chord density. EZ and MOR are adequate, and Jimmy Buffet doesn’t get too crazy. But the results don’t really sound correct for the modern pop genre nor do they sound novel. Scott Joplin is fantastic!
I have a program called Jammer Pro. The authors haven’t done anything significant with it in 10 or 12 years. They still have the same demo midi files on the website since 2001. Jammer Pro has a very excellent chord progression generation algorithm. It lets you adjust parameters like: the pace of the chord changes, starting and ending on the tonic or fifth, the monotonic and diatonic flavor, and the percentage of what they call pop, breezy, blues and jazz chords. I am often amazed and inspired by what Jammer Pro spits out. You still need to use your judgment though.
I would like to see BIAB allow the user to control some internal parameters and improve the algorithm. There would be less fix up required later in the composition procedure.
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In a related question, has anyone seen any information on how some of the example song files are created? Can I get results like that with expert use of the melodist or was there a lot of human intervention in those examples?
I was listening to styles set 47, described as “ Contemporary Country 2”. I found the chord progressions poignant on many of the example files. Did someone just keep clicking the compose button until a touching song fell out? Did the human composer just enter the chords? Or was it some combination?
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it's funny bad singer...i had forgotten i had jammer pro laying around. with some caressing it does seem to get closer to what i'm talking about with controlled simplicity. the styles and parts can't hold a candle to BIAB but it does seem like it's progression generator might be a little more on target.
i guess you are supposed to treat groove 1 as a verse and groove 2 as a chorus?
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Quite a few of the included Demo Songs must have been done the way I describe above, as when I go through them I recognize chord changes from other popular songs, give or take a few liberties. The Melody placed overtop is original, though.
--Mac
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You can import ANY melodist with the melodist edit parameters. You can also set up your melodist song structure with or without key transpo changes (AB format). That will help minimize the chord generation, as long as you have selected a simple melodist to import. If you want to look at the different types of melodists, open your BB folder and scroll all the way to the bottom of the files list. They should be listed as X.st2, if I remembered correctly. Those are the ones I was talking about when importing.
Trax
Some melodists will place a single chord only into every measure/bar. I think the rok.st2 types will do that.
Last edited by Muzic Trax; 08/10/11 09:26 PM.
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