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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2004
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Apprentice
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Apprentice
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Peter Gannon,
Thanks for the wonderful products you have created for decades. Thank you also for participating in these forums, so that users can interact directly with the creator of the software, the CEO of the company.
You have participated in this thread, in a conversation with Bob Norton regarding MIDI vs Real Tracks, etc., a very interesting discussion.
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
That is a limitation of BIAB that has been complained about in these forums not only for years, but for decades.
Sure, there are work-arounds, but a lot of hassle, and not always with good results. Or the option of buying Bob's "expanded" styles.
It sure would be nice though, if that serious limitation of BIAB could be resolved without the user having to resort to work-arounds, or to buy a third party add-on.
Is your company working on fixing that limitation? If so, when do you expect that fix to be available?
Thanks again.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Quote:
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.
Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.
Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
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Quote:
This looks like a good item to put in the "Tips and Tricks" Section (?)
Bruce 
I agree... done!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:
1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?
And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')
2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.
3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure.
If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2004
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Apprentice
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Quote:
Quote:
I have waited for a long time for a list of 5 or 6 songs that REQUIRE this. But alas it never happens. I'm sure somewhere this, like the bar limit, keeps people up nights. So far, that's not me.
Don't click here for why I don't understand why you need them.
Bingo. The answer is: if you have all these chords in a bar, then they are NOT chords. It's an harmonized melody. These aren't chords, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
So basically, I am on your same wavelenght. Never saw a song with 6, 7 or 8 'chords' in a bar; again, unless the tempo is extremely slow.
Not often 6,7,8. Sometimes 5 to be sure.
Whether or not you call it a "harmonized melody" rather than a chord change, one still needs to be able to change the chord more than four times in the measure, and that has been a major limitation of BIAB since its inception.
Frankly, I think posts like yours and John Conley's saying something like: "I don't see why anyone needs to have more than four chord changes in a bar, I never need it, I don't know any songs like that, etc., etc., etc.", are rather silly.
That is fine, if you never need to put more than four chord changes in a bar. But a lot of people have come across that need in certain songs, and have asked for such a fix for decades. Just because you personally have not come across a need for that fix, you do not need to belittle those who do, and imply that such a fix is not necessary, just because you personally have never had a need for it. Respect the fact that others need it.
I would still like a reply from Peter Gannon about this, rather than smokescreens like the post I just replied to.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Apprentice
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Hmmm- Pat. Very interesting concept you have there. That the problem is people considering a measure to be a measure, rather than a "chord cell". May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think. In the BIAB interface, there is much reference to "bars". "Settings for current bar", "play from bar...", "number of bars in chorus", etc. I don't see a setting "number of chord cells in chorus". Do you deny that in music talk the term "bar" is a synonym for "measure"? Or will a music dictionary define "bar" as "chord cell"? Saying that the problem is fixed because users can use complicated workarounds that are a lot of hassle, and do not always bring good results, or that one can buy third party expanded styles to deal with the problem (with those expanded styles limited to MIDI, not RT and RD), seems to me yet another smokescreen, to obscure the fact of a serious limitation that has existed in the program, I think the most persistently complained about limitation for decades. It is certainly no issue to me whether or not Notes Norton is put out of business or not. Completely irrelevant, another attempt at distracting from the main question. Once again, if you, Pat, have not ever had a need to put more than four chords in a measure (yes, I will call it that), that is fine. But there is no need to insult the many users who have asked for this for decades, implying that they are crazy or stupid or something. (Stupid, I guess, to think of "measures" rather than "chord cells"?) I have to say that I find it strange that it seems like every time this limitation has been brought up (which is many times, over years), that posters suddenly appear to insult those who ask about it. Yet PG Music never responds to the question, never says whether they will fix that limitation. So, ignoring the distraction of smokescreens, I am still waiting for a reply from PG or someone else from PG Music, regarding a serious limitation, that users have asked to be fixed for decades, whether a fix is in the works for it. Thank you. Quote:
Quote:
I would also be very interested though, to hear your take on the original question of this thread--regarding creating a measure in BIAB with more than four chords in the measure.
The wording here (referring to the chord cell as a measure) reveals the reason why people keep seeing a problem with the product's design. Regarding the ongoing request that this be "fixed", it's worth noting three points:
1) chord resolution is a function of the STYLE. If the program changed the way it uses styles in order to create 8 chord cells, wouldn't it cause all existing styles to stop working in the new engine? How much complaining would THAT cause?
And if existing styles stopped working, wouldn't that functionally put Notes Norton out of business unless he was willing to completely rewrite all of his styles? (Just sayin')
2) the ability to make styles that work any way the user wants has been a part of BIAB for years, which is why Notes Norton was able to solve this problem himself ten years ago. So, there is a solution in place and has been for a decade. As shown above, the built-in ability of the stylemaker to take an existing style and expand it has been available for three years.
3) The problem arises because people insist on viewing the chord cell as a measure. It isn't a measure, it is a 4 chord cell. Although most songs work using a chord cell as a measure, it doesn't always work... therefore, the chord cell cannot be a measure. (So please stop saying it is.)
If you need more than 4 chords in measure, then you need more than one 4 chord cell per measure, and therefore you need a style that will accommodate that. (see post above)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Quote:
May I ask you to take a look at the BIAB documentation. Does it talk about "chord cells"? No, it refers to "measures", as it should, as that is how musicians think.
You're right. The documentation does say that. Probably because in all but a handful of songs it functions perfectly well as a measure.
I'm just pointing out the same thing as you, but from a different direction. By your logic and mine a true measure can accommodate more than 4 chords. What the documentation calls a measure cannot do that.
Therefore my conclusion is that is not a measure (even though 99% of the time it can be used that way) , and that a more accurate description of it is "4 chord cell". Anyone who looks at it according to the most functional definition will be best prepared to achieve the results he wants.
Your conclusion is that PGMusic needs to make it function in accordance with the attributes of a measure, allowing 8 chords. Fair enough. We just disagree. Actually, we don't even disagree, we just have a different threshold for contentment.
Regarding insults:
I have nothing to gain by insulting you. I assure you that was not my intent.
Regarding complicated workarounds:
Styles have been the power of BIAB since its beginning. There are many things that can only be accomplished through the creation of special styles. Only those who have taken the time to learn how to make styles know how to do everything the program is capable of doing.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Yes documentation still calls them measures, but it still calls the track that can contain hundreds of different instruments strings and another piano and another guitar. This is because BiaB has expanded from its humble beginnings to what it is today.I tend to think of each numbered section in the matrix as a cell instead of a measure because it allows me to do things that I cannot do otherwise, like play a 5/4 song or a 6/8 song using a SW style and making each cell 2 measures -- or using an EXPANDED style making each cell a half measure to overcome the 4 chord or associated limitation. As far as the 8 chords per bar are concerned, very few songs that I have run across have needed them, but many songs have needed:- more than 4 chords per bar and
- a chord on both a beat and the upbeat preceding it (you can't push a chord and still have the cord on the beat that you pushed).
I've done 29 fake disks http://www.nortonmusic.com/contents.html#fake and 28 of them have been transcribed from off-the-shelf, best selling fake books from publishers like Hal Leoanard, Warner Brothers, Alfred and so on. The need for EXPANDED styles are so common, that I don't think I've done a single fake disk that hasn't needed EXPANDED styles - which is the reason I invented them back in the 1990s. And the genres that need EXPANDED styles run across all styles, rock, pop, country, jazz, blues, Latin American, reggae, disco, Broadway and so on. Band-in-a-Box has its great features, but it also has its limitations. For a few examples: - Putting a brass section in the channel labeled 'strings' is one very easy way to get around a limitation.
- Putting the equivalent of a group of Latin American percussionists (conga, timbale, guiro, cowbell, etc.) into one drum channel in the StyleMaker is another,
- using one cell as a 3/4 measure and the next as a 2/4 measure to play a 5/4 rhythm is another,
- exporting to a MIDI sequencer and getting rid of the 3rd in a C5 power chord that BiaB insists on inserting ... or getting rid of the Diminished 7th (also a 6th) in that chord that you wanted to be a diminished triad is another
- and using creating and using EXPANDED styles to put more than 4 chords in a measure or a chord both on the beat and the upbeat before that very same beat is another.
You can choose to use these 'work-arounds' to "fix" the limitations of BiaB if you like, or you can accept those very same limitations. You can also make your wishes known to PG Music who have been very receptive to many of our past wishes. Our wishes are the main reason why there are more than 3 instruments, user styles, full G-MIDI drum kit, Piano Roll editor, Notation, and many of the other improvements that have come along since those DOS days so long ago. Bravo to PG Music for all of this. I choose to invent and use these work-arounds and also to put my improvement wishes into the Wish List. You can either live with the limitations or go with the work-arounds - nobody here seems to be telling anyone what to do, simply offering suggestions as to what you CAN do if you want to. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I am glad that you see the reason that one might want to have more than 4 chords per beat and push to 16ths. Requiring a band hit on an anticipation is really important in modern music. The ability to have a hit on the "ta" of 4 and on the following 1 would be a real gift. Would it be possible for the expanded style to become a 4 bar expansion at 4 times tempo to achieve this? Just wondering. I have just started evaluating BIAB as an arranging tool to cut my work load. I build minus one and Karaoke tracks as well as produce bands and having a way to convey these ideas rapidly and have BIAB handle the basic arrangements for me would be amazing. One track that I am working on for one of my students is the Foo Fighter's Everlong and there are some complex rhythms that defy what I am capable of doing at this point with BIAB. Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future? Thank you for your input. AJ
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Hi AJ, welcome to the forum. One thing, you do realize you're answering someone from almost two years ago? Is there a possibility that BIAB may be expanded to allow for 8 chords per measure by default at some point in the near future? As to your question, who knows? This is just us users here. No inside secrets available. This would go in the Wishlist forum. I know this would be very cool and has been asked about for years. What version of Biab are you using? Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi all. The last post prior to this one was in 2013. I just thought I'd ask to check if all of the above is still the case as far as anyone knows.
I too would like a simple and direct way to have a chord on the "and of 4" and then a chord (same or different) on the following 1.
Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
BIAB for Windows 2023 (1006)
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BIAB for Windows 2023 (1006)
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EXPANDED styles are the only way I know to do that. I invented EXPANDED styles decades ago and I have a nice selection. You can demo a lot of them in a low-fi MP3 at http://www.nortonmusic.com/styledemo.htmlNote they are MIDI styles, I used the built in software synth that came with BiaB at the time, and ripped at a very low bit rate. If you have a better synth, they will sound much better. Insights, incites and a self-serving but I hope helpful plug by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Are expanded styles (built or purchased) and tempo changes still the only way to accomplish this?
I agree Norton Expanded Styles are currently the best way. But it's not the ONLY way. You can increase the duration of your song by twice, then change the style and try to find a good fit. Now you have over two measures what was formerly in one, so you have eight possible chords in those two measures. The notation won't be right, but often the sound can work. Or - maybe that's what you meant by 'built" rather than 'purchased'?
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I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.
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I'm used to writing music using musical notation. Which is one reason why I like the midi styles that BiaB has. Because the tracks are midi, I can go into whichever track I want and edit whichever notes I want. Including adding chords in on the "and" of 4. So I guess I don't see what the big deal is here. Of course, I don't do these modifications within BiaB if the track is not a melody track -- or not often at least. I have modified tracks that weren't the melody track by copying them to the Solo track, editing them there, then copying them back to their original track. I find it to be a real PITA that BiaB still does not allow one to alter any track but the Melody or Solo track. But it is what it is, so usually I export the files as MIDI so that I can load them into Cakewalk (formerly Sonar Platinum) and tweak them to my heart's content there. But that's just my workflow -- yours will probably differ.
My workflow is like yours, i.e. BiaB MIDI files to DAW, mine being Studio One Pro. But I would like to see PGMusic add things like chords on eighth or sixteenth notes. Having BiaB do it would be a lot faster than what I have to do in my DAW. YMMV
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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For me, I don't need more than 4 chords per bar. Fingering more than 4 on a guitar is not practical, unless you are a contortionist, or the song is very slow. I can agree that more than 4 positions for chords makes some sense. However, my ear doesn't usually hear such subtle change in a chord position.
There are far more issues that need to be addressed than this.
BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
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You're a guitarist, not the same on keyboards. It also depends on your style of playing. Simple strumming on the downbeat or basic 4/4 country/blues/rock is one thing but as soon as you get into more complex syncopated latin jazz/funk/fusion it's a whole other thing. I'm sure you've heard of the classic R&B song Mercy, Mercy, Mercy? That's a perfect example of what Biab can't do without expanding the style and doing these workarounds and yes, it's very important to musicians doing songs like that and no, nothings changed in the years I've been using Biab in spite of the fact it has to be one of the oldest Wishlist items there is.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Any changes on 4 chords per bar in 2020?
BIAB for Windows Version 2019 (643)
Windows 10 (1909)
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- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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