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Joined: Feb 2001
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Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 716 |
Any keyboard player considering buying a single Bose L1 and wanting a great piano sound might be interested in my experience.
A few weeks ago I posted that I was unhappy with the quality of the piano sounds from my Yamaha CP33 using a single Bose L1 Compact. Every other sound source sounded great. I did a lot a research and came to the conclusion that there is no way to preserve the great Yamaha piano sound through a single speaker because the piano is recorded (if that's the right word) through left and right channels and summing to mono always results in some phase cancellation which makes the piano sound very "cheezy" Other instruments are basically already mono therefore summing to mono doesn't degrade the sound. Using my CP33's mono piano patch or the left/mono output didn't solve the problem. From what I have read things are no different with other keyboards. In effect these keyboard "stereo piano" patches don't represent real instruments because the only way to hear them properly is through headphones or stereo speakers.
Many people on the Bose forum told me that using two Compacts and keeping the piano channels separate was the answer. I was a bit skeptical at first, not only because that was another $1000 but also several other non-Bose owners told me that not only would the stereo effect be lost on most of the audience but the piano would sound even worse to any one sitting a long way off center. This may be true for conventional speakers but Bose claims 180deg sound spread from each L1, which makes all the difference. In any case I was trying to improve sound quality, rather than create a stereo effect.
The salesman in Guitar Center made me an offer I couldn't refuse. He said that if I bought another Compact and was not satisfied that it improved the piano sound he offered to take it back PLUS the first one I had bought 4 months earlier. I took the plunge and wow what a difference! Using the two Compacts the pianos now sound the same as on my phones or through my two studio monitors. It doesn't matter how far apart I place the Compacts, even when I place them right next to each other there is still a big improvement. I did a series of tests with one and two Compacts and the improvement can be heard all round the room although it is less further away from the speakers. In any case, the improvement is worth it because the better I sound to me, the better I play. I will not be returning the second Compact.
If I had known about this problem of piano sound quality using a single speaker I would probably never have bought Bose because I would have baulked at spending $2000. Perhaps separating the piano channels to two conventional speakers works just as well but I haven't got the equipment to do a test. Maybe someone else does this?
I know many people say they are satisfied with the piano sound from their single Bose and I am happy for them. However, to my ears, it's just not good enough and I suggest that prospective buyers, who want the best piano sound do lots of auditioning before buying a single Bose.
Tony
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Nice write-up, Tony. I wish I could afford that, but alas...
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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I finally went stereo about two years ago because of the leslie effect on B3 patches. They sound much better in stereo and I heard the piano better too especially the EP's with stereo effects. I started with a pair of EV 12" powered monitor speakers and they are fine for maybe two thirds of my gigs but were not strong enough for the rest. I've still got two big single systems that are too big to fit both in my car, they have plenty of power but I've been spoiled by stereo so I finally bought a pair of 15" Eons. They're overkill just for keyboards but they fit in the car and all I can say is wow, do they sound great in stereo. I did two big band gigs last year where there was not room on stage with 18 people for both speakers and I had to make do with one and I sure can hear the difference now. It's definitely a stretch to spend 2 grand at one time but I have at least that much in all these systems I've acquired over the last 6-8 years or so. Time to sell something, I think.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 348
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 348 |
Ya know I use to think that Bose products were way over priced and wouldn't think of putting down the money for anything by that company.
Then my wife bought me a set of Bose earphones because I was complaining how the music I was listening to through my earphones was sounding just a bit muffled.
Yep I'm getting older and starting to lose some of the higher frequencies.
Well I skeptically put the Bose phones on and was amazed how much clearer the music sounded through them.
I'm a believer in their products now, but unfortunately they are still out of my price range.
Would love to have a set of bose speakers, but can't afford them right now.
Congrats on your purchase.
Tim
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Joined: Mar 2004
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Tony,
There is no feeling like the feeling you get when you count off a tune and you hear a great sound. With this said I have played 100's of gigs using the same equipment and because of varying room acoustics, sometimes I come up with varying sounds . . . but man oh man when it is "just right" all is well in gigland!
I am happy for you and your new satisfying sounding system.
Later,
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 272
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 272 |
I have discovered the same thing, that playing keyboards in stereo on stage makes a huge difference in your sound, particularly if you rely on a good acoustic piano, B3/Leslie, or chorused EP sound. The leslie effect is particularly good in stereo (I use a Nord Stage). A few years ago I started using 2 JBL Eon 10s on stage in a rock band scenario, because I wasn't satisfied with the sound I was getting with a single amplifier. At first thinking that they might be both bass-challenged and underpowered, I was pleasantly surprised to find they were PLENTY LOUD and have surprisingly decent bass response for such small speakers. I've been very happy with the sound, and the fact that they are so compact and light are a bonus.
I also have one Bose L1 Compact. I've tried this on stage and have had the same problem that Tony described - acoustic piano through it leaves a lot to be desired. I'm glad to learn that Tony has had much better results using 2 of them in stereo, and may eventually go to this setup myself. They do not, however, have the power reserve that the Eons have. Volume-wise, I could not quite keep up with the rest of the band when using only one, and I suspect that two wouldn't improve that aspect appreciably.
Thanks for sharing your info on this.
Terry
BIAB/RB 2018 PlusPak. Dell Inspiron23 running Win10, 12GB RAM, 2.5GHz i7, Presonus AudioBox USB interface.
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That's very interesting because I really wanted the 10's but thought the same thing, they would be too underpowered and got a good deal on my used 15's. Maybe I should pick up some 10's and try them out, I can always sell the 15's. Yeah right, I haven't sold squat in 20 years... I've been in keyboard heaven since I bought my Kurzeil PC3 and been running it through those Eon's. Just about the perfect keyboard sound, certainly the best I've ever had and I've had a bunch of them over the years. The B3 is just awesome on the Kurz. For that matter all the new boards are just killer, I think they've all pretty much solved the acoustic piano and B3 all in one keyboard sound. Wonder where the companies are going to go from here? I know, lighter but still with a tight action would be nice and maybe it folds in half but still can unfold to a solid 88 key rigid keyboard. A 15 pound 30" folding suitcase that sounds and plays like a combination Steinway and an old classic B3 and the usual 1000 or so great world class other sounds. I'm sure it's possible but not at a price any of us would want to pay like oh, $500 or so.  Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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one of the great things about a musician forum is hearing what works for others. Thanks to all who participated in the thread. Good information all around!
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 14
Newbie
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Newbie
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 14 |
Tony,
Just came across your post today. I too have a CP33, which I love. Along with the new version of Band-in-a-Box, I use it as an adjunct when teaching. I run both BIAB and CP33 thru a Mackie stereo mixer (802-VLZ3), then out thru a small TASCAM speaker system [2 speakers on the piano and a subwoofer]. The whole TASCAM system cost me $100 from Sweetwater. I got spoiled! It’s a stereo sound and it sounds wonderful. Life is good. I’m a happy guy.
Now to gigging: I do basically small gigs—jazz solos, duos, trios, etc. The piano sound is all I use. Don’t need a lot of volume. I’m currently running the CP33 thru an Acoustic Image amp, Model Coda R [$1,300 when I purchased]. This amp is mono. The sound is just OK (passable) when doing jazz duos and more. However, since ‘day one’ I’ve always been dissatisfied with the sound on solo gigs, probably because the sound is so exposed. To my ears, the sound is wonky, hollow, nasal and incomplete—just for starters. It doesn’t do the CP33 any justice. I’ve tried taking the CP33 right channel and inputting it into Channel 1 of the amp, then the CP33 left channel and inputting it to either Channel 2 or the effects return. It didn’t work; the sound still summed to mono. I have a bass player friend of mine who has an extension speaker for his setup. We tried adding that speaker to my setup. No good—what I got was a mono sound coming from two speakers. I think I see a new sound system in my future.
A few questions for you:
1. We’re now 8 months or so after your original post. Having gigged with it, are you still as satisfied with sound of the two Bose L1 Compacts that you’ve purchased?
2. Being that you post on the PG Music Forums, do you use BIAB and CP33 with your L1’s? If so, any issues?
3. If you had to make the choice again, would you choose Bose L1’s?
4. Have you had any limitations with the number of inputs on the two L1’s?
5. What types of gigs do you do?
6. Did you buy an effects processor to enrich on the sound? I understand that the L1 doesn’t come with effects.
7. Did you also purchase the Bose bass module?
Thanks for your time.
Jack Tyrrell
Waterbury, CT
MacBook Pro
Version 10.6.8
BIAB 2014 (80)
UltraPlus PAK
320GB External Drive
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Expert
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Expert
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,345 |
My 1st experience with the Bose L1 (not the compact) was because the piano player in the band, at the time, was told to use 2 for better sound via stereo. I also played my Synthophone through it.
My present band has the full size L1's also. My horn section is panned. Lead voice plus Bari in the center, trombone 1/2 left, tenor sax 1/2 right & trumpets full left & right. The sound is MUCH more realistic!
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I have a Bose L1 Model 2 with a Bass Module
For most things it's fine.
There are probably piano patches that would sound better on my Korg if I go stereo. I'll have to check that.
Mostly on 'gigs' if you call them that, I'm playing a Gospel Organ sound with trem. Sort of a B3 patch in a way. I can fire strings or synth on top to fatten it out.
The other gigs are where my wife and I do flute piano together, sometimes strings on top.
I have Big 15" speakers that weigh a Ton each (88 lbs) plus a couple of big amps, the ones that push the 15 amp circuit to the limit. One Crown and a Qsc. Lots of extension cords for that setup, you have to find power from 2 separate breakers.
I love cranking lots of sound. Oh well.
I'm still struggling with hearing loss they can't fix. Along with a bunch of flat out broken spots where if they push it I just hear crackling. It is what it is. Stuff on 2kh is ok though. LOL.
If that cute girl has a baritone voice she's not interested in me anyway! But I can hear her!
John Conley
Musica est vita
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An update to my earlier post. I'm constantly searching for the "perfect solution" to getting on stage stereo keyboard sound. I think I finally found it. My problem lately has been not enough room on various stages to place my two Eons. Plus placing two big Eon's just for keys in a small room visually looks like overkill. Two examples are a nice medium size lounge with a small stage where there's room for my keys and one speaker next to the drummer. No space at all for the 2nd one and a big band gig at a country club where we were against a wall, no stage and I was with the drummer right next to the main entrance to the room. No possibility of a 2nd speaker there either. I kept thinking about the nicer arranger keyboards with their built in speakers and how great they sound to the player and I kept thinking how can I duplicate that? I'm not worried about stereo out to the audience because they'll never notice even if it's possible to set that up properly, it's just for me.
I finally bought a pair of Behringer 208D's small powered 8" 200W speakers. I was concerned because a lot of people say Behringers are crap but they cost about a third of what QSC or Yamaha 8" DXR powered speakers cost. They were on sale at Walmart for $111 each. An absolute steal. I can now say they sound great and the idea works perfect. I put the two speakers on the floor on each side of the keyboard pointed back at me and I have one powered Eon behind me for power. I get perfect stereo and the audience gets the Eon. Excellent. These little Beri's are very loud. At a big band rehearsal last week I had to turn them down because I was getting blasted.
I tested these at home and they roll off the bass at around 120hz, not good if I were using these by themselves but with my 15" Eon, no problem.
I may have finally found my solution and for cheap too.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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