|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361
Veteran
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361 |
A guitar is never in tune.
The pitch of each string is determined by the tension, but plucking the string stretches it and increases the tension, so raising the pitch of the note. As the sound dies, the pitch falls, so that it's only in tune when the sound has stopped. You can watch this happen on a good electronic tuner. The same applies to pianos, so that an “ff” section will be sharper than a “pp” section.
This is why certain pitch-accurate synthesized instruments sound subtly different to the live version.
But you probably knew this anyway.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 16
Enthusiast
|
|
Enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 16 |
ROG
The same is true with string instruments. When a string instrument is bowed (or plucked, for that matter), the string is stretched to the side and the tone is sharpened a bit. Higher quality (read - more expensive) instrument samples try to capture this artifact to add to the realism, but how successful they are at it is debatable.
Regards,
Ted
Last edited by tnicoson; 04/11/12 02:23 AM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251 |
Quote:
A guitar is never in tune....You probably knew this anyway.
Yep. (Also known as yes.) Neither is any other stringed, wind, percussion, or actual acoustic instrument of ANY type. Including pianos.
NOTHING is ever in tune except for a MIDI instrument. But of course that isn't an instrument. It's a computer generated sound based on a command and a patch to an "instrument".
It ain't "fascinating", nor even a new idea, (unless you include those who are TOTALLY ignorant about the concept of what constitutes "music").
So what's your "point"? I'm confused. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815
Expert
|
|
Expert
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,815 |
Dang Bob, lighten up. Some folks might not have been exposed to that idea and might actually find that an interesting concept.
Intonation is always the biggest thing (to me) that separates the good players from the novices. Interesting to note that you are fighting physics as well as technique.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,251 |
Kevin, Quote:
Dang Bob, lighten up. Some folks might not have been exposed to that idea and might actually find that an interesting concept.
Intonation is always the biggest thing (to me) that separates the good players from the novices. Interesting to note that you are fighting physics as well as technique.
LOL! I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who has NEVER thought instruments were "in tune".
Just "close".
So the concept of ANYONE EVER thinking that instruments were "in tune" except folks who didn't have a clue about music is foreign to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 7,258 |
I'm ignorant Bob LOL LOL LOL LOL
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,926 |
Well, I was fascinated by this factoid when I first learned it Lo! these many years ago. It is why action and intonation are so important on physical instruments. With it in mind, I even played around with "stretch" tuning back when I owned a Fender Rhodes. And not only does picking or hammering send the string out of tune, so does fretting it. Damn! Just when I got it tuned, and you had to mess up everything by going and playing the thing. The timing of this post is interesting. Just a few hours earlier I saw Peter Yarrow doing a PSA (that's Public Service Announcement to you non-broadcast-oriented sorts) for colonoscopy(!). He had written a bit of doggerel and set it to his fingerpicked guitar, a small-bodied Martin which was so astonishingly in tune that I looked to make sure he was actually playing. 
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,840
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,840 |
Lots of good "out of tune" songs out there, though. 
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361 |
Quote:
So what's your "point"? I'm confused.
When I said "you probably know this anyway" I meant you, Bob.
"The point" is that we have beginners on the forum too and some of them might not realize why the hammered acoustic guitar rhythm which they've recorded doesn't sound quite right. Hopefully, someone won't have realized that you can now, with modern technology, drop the track down a few cents and make a world of difference and then the post won't have been in vain.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
NOTHING is ever in tune except for a MIDI instrument. But of course that isn't an instrument. It's a computer generated sound based on a command and a patch to an "instrument".
Not true, ot at the least that statement needs to be qualified.
There are MIDI devices that do indeed take all of the tuning foibles of the instruments into account.
There are also MIDI devices that can easily do Equal Temperament tuning and at the touch of a button switch over to Just Intonation - as well as a few other schemes.
Most MIDI Piano samplings today are also Stretch Tuned, just like the real thing.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
...Hopefully, someone won't have realized that you can now, with modern technology, drop the track down a few cents and make a world of difference and then the post won't have been in vain.
ROG.
Doing that would result in Chorusing of the part when played alongside other instrument trracks that were not treated in this fashion, but it would not really emulate the dynamic changin of pitch that is described in the OP as being due to the very slight change in string tension due to a pluck, which would only be slightly sharper at the beginning of a held note, eventually returning to the originally tuned picth or tension. Changing the pitch of the entire track would yield a static change in the pitch relationship from track to track, p;us would not differ with different strings.
Yhe amount of tension change imparted to a string by plucking it is not very much and only happens for a short time at note initiation.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361 |
Mac.
I take your point, but in certain circumstances it can work and be a useful technique. If the track is a fast rhythm, the pitch of the hard attack is what's heard as the note doesn't have time to drop before the re-strike. If the guitar had been tuned with light picking, the resulting rise in pitch can produce an unwanted effect. Dropping the track by 2 to 3 cents can improve it. It's most effective where the track has been copied up from short sections of hard playing.
We've used this technique with some success over the years and to the satisfaction of customers who were surprised at the difference it made.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,493
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 6,493 |
MIDI instruments aren't necessarily always in perfect tune, as Mac pointed out, many better synths include the inconsistencies of the instruments they are emulating.
My wind controller has a 'reed' that senses pitch, which is almost as difficult as a saxophone to keep in perfect tune (although it is easy to keep it in close tune). However, if the patches are programmed properly, changing pressure on the 'reed' not only changes the pitch, but changes the timbre of the instrument tone just like the instrument that is being emulated. This is done through physical modeling synthesis on my VL70m module.
I know from basic analysis that a guitar is not in tune and from working with a strobo-conn in school that it takes a lot of work to play a saxophone in tune. I exploit these when emulating those instruments with a synthesizer.
I recorded a guitar emulation I did with my WX5 controller and VL70m synth - recorded at a gig on an Archos "juke box" device (pseudo iPod). I posted it on the Gibson/Epiphone forum and asked the guitarists to evaluate my guitar playing. I got plenty of great comments, including one that said it sounded very Jeff Beck-ish (to me a huge compliment - as I admire his technical skills).
After a few dozen comments I came clean and told them I played it on a wind synth, and people were amazed. After the 'confession' one guitarist said that he thought there was something a little be funny about the vibrato.
Rolling Stone magazine classified Edgar Winter's solo in Frankenstein as one of the 100 greatest guitar solos in rock. And Edgar played it on an analog synth - the ones with oscillators, filters and all those twirly knobs.
You can make convincing emulations of acoustic instruments - but you have to know how to play the synth patches to do it, and each patch is different.
When doing brass sections, I often mess with the intonation of the instruments 'stretch tuning' them in a way. Or for another example, if I am playing two trumpets or saxes together, I'll attempt to get them to play together in just intonation as two might do if they are focused listening to each other. Of course, that means one of them is out of tune with the band - but that's OK.
The problem is that it is so easy to get sounds out of a synth, that way too many people play those synths without learning how to do it well. Especially with a sequencer. In the early days of MIDI on the Internet, I downloaded a few MIDI files from the usenet/newsgroup forums as it seemed like a great way to get these Steely Dan songs for my duo without the time spent sequencing them myself. What I found was robotic sounding, step-entered from the sheet music. Easy to do, but not very musical. I did some more downloading and found everything from more step entered music to music so badly played it was laughable.
It's been my experience that the easier the entry level is for an instrument, the greater the number of people who don't play it well but play for the public anyway. With those great numbers of mediocre players, it gets easy to dis the instrument.
So just because a synth patch may be perfectly in tune, that doesn't mean it has to be played that way. That's where skill, practice, musicianship and taste come into play.
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 7,697 |
And hence one of the biggest differences between a studio recording and a live performance. Yes, you can use those studio tricks and I have as well but it takes away from the live sound. I never thought of this way before but this is probably why most of my album collection is live stuff. The best acoustic bass players are off in their intonation all the time. Is it intentional or is it simply they're playing an imperfect instrument or they were distracted by the babe with the nice rack? Synths are great I love them, they make a live gig a lot of fun but they are too perfect sometimes. I hear 40-50 year old jazz and blues recordings on the radio all the time that were done in small venues using out of tune pianos, sloppy drums, poor guitars, one or two mics set up who knows where, the eq and mix is way off, yet the performance shines through.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361
Veteran
|
|
OP
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,361 |
jazzmammal - you're absolutely right. Sometimes it can be the imperfections which give the music it's character. In this age of quartz crystal controlled tempos and quantised instruments, it's good to remember how well those early tracks sounded.
ROG.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,109
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,109 |
I'm just happy to hear that it isn't only MY guitar that's never in tune... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,546
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 24,546 |
Five out of six strings are in tune on my guitar It’s just that damn B string that’s never in tune 
My wife had her driving test today.
She got 8 out of 10.
The other 2 jumped out of the way!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,730
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,730 |
Mine too Mario! Dat dredded B string! It needs to ...... wait for it ...... "B" have
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Off-Topic
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Quote:
Five out of six strings are in tune on my guitar
It’s just that damn B string that’s never in tune
"There are no B zstrings in heaven." --Doc Watson
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® users: Build 904 now available!
If you're already using Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®, make sure to grab the latest update! Build 904 is now available for download and includes the newest additions and enhancements from our team.
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® users: Build 1237 is now available!
Already a Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows user? Stay up to date and download the build 1237 to get all the latest additions and enhancements.
PowerTracks Pro 2026 for Windows is Here!
PowerTracks 2026 is here—bringing powerful new enhancements designed to make your production workflow faster, smoother, and more intuitive than ever.
The enhanced Mixer now shows Track Type and Instrument icons for instant track recognition, while a new grid option simplifies editing views. Non-floating windows adopt a modern title bar style, replacing the legacy blue bar.
The Master Volume is now applied at the end of the audio chain for consistent levels and full-signal master effects.
Tablature now includes a “Save bends when saving XML” option for improved compatibility with PG Music tools. Plus, you can instantly match all track heights with a simple Ctrl-release after resizing, and Add2 chords from MGU/SGU files are now fully supported... and more!
Get started today—first-time packages start at just $49.
Already using PowerTracks Pro Audio? Upgrade for as little as $29 and enjoy the latest improvements!
Order now!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics86,063
Posts799,662
Members40,025
| |
Most Online44,367
Mar 4th, 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean