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VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums #173508 09/16/12 07:30 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	I'm using a VSTi plug-in to play some soundfont drum samples I bought a while back. The problem is that PT is playing the MIDI notes literally with no sustain, so it cuts off the end of the drum samples. Is there a way to get PT to play the whole sample without cutting it off?

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums coloroo #173509 09/17/12 01:36 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England	The problem is that the VSTi is responding to note-off commands, which is normal for most instrument samplers. What you need is a dedicated drum sample player which just triggers the sample and lets it play to the end. There are lots of good free ones available - try this for starters. www.vstplanet.com The only other solution I can thinks of is to edit the midi notes to increase their duration. (Tedious) ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums ROG #173510 09/17/12 07:01 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	Any suggestions on a good one to use? Problem is the free ones have very little description of what they do, and little or no documentation comes with them. Most of the searching around I've done suggests using expensive stand-alone software like addictive drums, bfd, or superior2. All I need is something that plays drum soundfonts well. Last edited by coloroo; 09/17/12 07:04 AM.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums coloroo #173511 09/17/12 09:01 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England	SoftDrum Synth is one that I've used in the past and it seems pretty good. Check it out on this page- http://www.vstplanet.com/Instruments/VST_Drums.htm ROG. EDIT - if you download it and need any help setting it up, just get back to me. Last edited by ROG; 09/17/12 09:03 AM. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums ROG #173512 09/18/12 06:22 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	Thank you for your reply. I did try out SoftDrum last night and was not able to get it working with their sample drums. The documentation is quite confusing. The Sonic Implants soundfont I'm using has 12 different drum sets, and it seems like it would be a real chore using an editor to break out every drum set separately (or as in their supplied samples also breaking out each drum from each drum set). On a positive note I was able to get some success using the free Cakewalk SFZ VSTi soundfont player. It did play the drum samples without chopping off the ends. However the mix of the drums seemed "off" with the snare drum being way too far up in the mix. I might have to do some more searching around for some more general VSTi soundfont players that allows for mixing of each individual note. I haven't tried SFZ+ yet but that one seems to have more features.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums coloroo #173513 09/18/12 04:03 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England	I realize that you've invested in soundfonts and so you obviously want to get them working, but I've always found it easier to work with wav samples. They usually come as individual samples, plus it's easier to make up your own sounds. There are lots of good VSTi drums which play wav files, so if you're still having problems and decide to go down that route, get back to me and I'll provide some more info. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums ROG #173514 09/19/12 02:14 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 3,161 Barton-on-Sea,Hants,UK L LynB Veteran
LynB Veteran L Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 3,161 Barton-on-Sea,Hants,UK	Most Drum Kits require nurturing as many do not quite do what you want. VSTi Drum machines usually contain the ability to change parameters internally and may not obey the Midi volume or velocity data contained in the Drum Track. Drum Soundfont Banks, also differ and may provide what you are looking for without editing. To edit Sf Banks or others, use Edit > Split Midi Drums into individual instruments. Now you can check each track, firstly, to see that all the tracks have sounds allocated. Secondly, because all the individual tracks are using Channel 10, it is necessary to adjust the relative volumes by changing the Velocity levels using Edit > Change Velocities. Once happy with the overall sounds, multiple tracks can be recorded to wav files separately or in combinations to benefit from Audio effect differences. Also, in extended format, you can mix and match by allocating different SF Banks/Vsti to the individual instruments. I use BFD but my sound set doesn't include Latin instruments for which I use a specific Latin SF. I hope this helps.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums LynB #173515 09/19/12 09:15 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	thanks for the replies. My understanding of soundfonts is limited, but aren't soundfonts is just an envelope for a collection of wav files? It might be possible then to break out the wav files separately.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums coloroo #173516 09/19/12 03:55 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England	Quote: aren't soundfonts is just an envelope for a collection of wav files? Yes, and then again, no. A soundfont starts out as a wav file, but by use of a soundfont editor it has things added, like looping. Because soundfonts weren't designed primarily for just drums, any sound which is required to play continuously needs a loop point added. In practice, lots of other processing can added to the wav file before it becomes a soundfont. Often the soundfonts are arranged in banks, such as the General Midi standard. Drum samples don't need to be this complex. All that's needed is a sample player which triggers the drum sound from a "note-on" command. Often the sample is just the raw wav file. Most drum VSTi will allow you to assign a separate midi note number as the trigger for each drum. More advanced ones will give you control over the pitch of the sample and some have EQ and effects sends. Lots of free drum samples are available and these can be loaded singly into most VSTI, allowing you to build a drum kit of your choosing. Each kit you create can then be saved as a preset. Hope this helps you to understand the possibilities. As I said before, if you want to go down this route I'd be happy to help. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums ROG #173517 09/19/12 04:31 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,608 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,608 Mi., USA	related thread may be of interest - http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=378245&an=0&page=0#Post378245 I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums rharv #173518 09/20/12 07:57 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	I appreciate your time in replying to my posts. I'm not keen on building up a drum kit on my own from WAV files because it looks very time consuming and I'm not good with MIDI mapping. All that being said, after searching thoroughly I went and bought Ezdrummer and have been playing around with that on Powertracks. It's working pretty good but I'm having a few problems: 1. When I load the Ezdrummer configuration window from Powertracks I can't hear anything being played in the configuration window. (This also happens with other VSTi's I've used) 2. When I'm playing a MIDI drum track in Powertracks with Ezdrummer some of the drum notes don't always play, but other times they do. For instance it often completely ignores the toms and plays just the bass, cymbals, and snare. 3. Ezdrummer has a track browser where you are supposed to be able to drag a MIDI file right into the MIDI track of the DAW. When I do this it imports the MIDI notes ok in to the bar but then it also erases every MIDI note that came before that bar.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums coloroo #173519 09/21/12 01:31 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,365 York, England	Ezdrummer isn't something I've worked with, so hopefully someone else will pick this up from here. Still, let's see what can be done. 1) You probably need to be using ASIO drivers for this, not MME. Ask us again if you need more info on ASIO. 2) Sounds like there's a limit on the number of notes it will play at the same time (polyphony). There might be a setting for this somewhere. 3) No idea. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums_EZ Drummer coloroo #173520 09/21/12 06:34 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 92 Davie,Fl. B Bobby Enthusiast
Bobby Enthusiast B Joined: May 2004 Posts: 92 Davie,Fl.	Iam using EZ Drummer with realband. I think power tracks is similar enough to try and help you. 1.In midi setup there is a checkbox to re-route midi playback to default synth. This may need to be checked or unchecked depending on whether you are using a single synth or have assigned a specific synth to one or more tracks. 2.Ez Drummer is set up so that it will respond correctly to a GM file. Are you referring to the same midi file not always playing all the drum notes, or different midi files? If you are using files taken off the web you may find that the drum mapping does not match. Piano roll will allow you to re-assign the notes to the correct keys. 3.Dragging and dropping the grooves onto a realband track behaves the same way. Here is the work around: Alternate between two tracks... Drag a groove to the first track, Drag the next groove to the second track and then copy paste to the first track. The grooves must be dragged to an empty track or it will erase the previous data. I believe this a problem specific to realband. If you are having trouble with vst's,some more info on your setup will enable more people to give you some help. Bobby..

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums_EZ Drummer Bobby #173521 09/22/12 05:26 AM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	Hi bobby, I'll check out your solutions. Thanks a great deal. As for the MIDI tracks I'm using... they are the ones that came with Ez Drummer. Maybe I'll just have to play with it some more. It seemed like it was a glitch to me. The toms wouldn't play, and then if I made some change like opening and closing the VSTi configuration window suddenly they would start playing again. As for the original soundfont discussion, I was able to use a program called sf2comp to extract all of the WAV files from the soundfont. It also generated a text file with all of the soundfont assignments. For example, here's one of the drumkits: PresetName=KickQ2 & YamaMaple1 Bank=128 Program=0 Instrument=Snare-YamahaMaple L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 Instrument=Kick-YamahaEQ2 L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=100 Instrument=Toms-YamahaThinhead L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=60 Instrument=Hats-Paiste L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=240 Instrument=Ride-ZildjianK L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=220 Instrument=Crash-15"ZildjMed L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=260 Instrument=Crash-17"ZildjCust L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=330 Instrument=Splash-12"Zildj L_LowKey=0 L_HighKey=127 L_LowVelocity=0 L_HighVelocity=127 L_initialAttenuation=330 GlobalLayer GL_startAddrsOffset= GL_endAddrsOffset= GL_startloopAddrsOffset= GL_endloopAddrsOffset= GL_startAddrsCoarseOffset= GL_modLfoToPitch= GL_vibLfoToPitch= GL_modEnvToPitch= GL_initialFilterFc= GL_initialFilterQ= GL_modLfoToFilterFc= GL_modEnvToFilterFc= GL_endAddrsCoarseOffset= GL_modLfoToVolume= GL_unused1= GL_chorusEffectsSend= GL_reverbEffectsSend= GL_pan= GL_unused2= GL_unused3= GL_unused4= GL_delayModLFO= GL_freqModLFO= GL_delayVibLFO= GL_freqVibLFO= GL_delayModEnv= GL_attackModEnv= GL_holdModEnv= GL_decayModEnv= GL_sustainModEnv= GL_releaseModEnv= GL_keynumToModEnvHold= GL_keynumToModEnvDecay= GL_delayVolEnv= GL_attackVolEnv= GL_holdVolEnv= GL_decayVolEnv= GL_sustainVolEnv= GL_releaseVolEnv= GL_keynumToVolEnvHold= GL_keynumToVolEnvDecay= GL_reserved1= GL_startloopAddrsCoarseOffset= GL_keynum= GL_velocity= GL_initialAttenuation= GL_reserved2= GL_endloopAddrsCoarseOffset= GL_coarseTune= GL_fineTune= GL_sampleModes= GL_reserved3= GL_scaleTuning= GL_exclusiveClass= GL_overridingRootKey= GL_unused5= So it lists all of the particular drums used in that particular drum kit. The text for one of the drums, say the Kick-YamahaEQ2 is this: InstrumentName=Kick-YamahaEQ2 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2ff2(L) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=111 Z_HighVelocity=127 Z_pan=65036 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2ff2(R) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=111 Z_HighVelocity=127 Z_pan=500 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2mf3(L) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=79 Z_HighVelocity=110 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=60 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2mf3(R) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=79 Z_HighVelocity=110 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=60 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2mp2(L) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=60 Z_HighVelocity=78 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=140 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2mp2(R) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=60 Z_HighVelocity=78 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=140 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2pp2(L) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=0 Z_HighVelocity=59 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=240 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2SEQ2pp2(R) Z_LowKey=36 Z_HighKey=36 Z_LowVelocity=0 Z_HighVelocity=59 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=240 Z_Modulator=(NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Linear), initialFilterFc, 0, (NoteOnVelocity,ReverseDirection,Unipolar,Switch), 0 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2ff7(L) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=111 Z_HighVelocity=127 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=15 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2ff7(R) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=111 Z_HighVelocity=127 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=15 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2mf2(L) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=79 Z_HighVelocity=110 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=60 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2mf2(R) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=79 Z_HighVelocity=110 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=60 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2mp4(L) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=60 Z_HighVelocity=78 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=140 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2mp4(R) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=60 Z_HighVelocity=78 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=140 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2pp3(L) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=0 Z_HighVelocity=59 Z_pan=65036 Z_initialAttenuation=240 Sample=YamkickA2NSEQ2pp3(R) Z_LowKey=35 Z_HighKey=35 Z_LowVelocity=0 Z_HighVelocity=59 Z_pan=500 Z_initialAttenuation=240 GlobalZone GZ_releaseVolEnv=5245 GZ_scaleTuning=0 It's giving the wav file for different velocities, and I'm assuming the (L) and (R) are referring to the different wavs for stereo, and there's some other information that I don't understand right now. So now on to the question of a VSTi drum plugin for playing these wav files. Which one do you recommend? Does it look like there's enough information in the above text to be able to piece together a kit from the WAV files?

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums_EZ Drummer coloroo #173522 09/22/12 05:19 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 92 Davie,Fl. B Bobby Enthusiast
Bobby Enthusiast B Joined: May 2004 Posts: 92 Davie,Fl.	On a positive note I was able to get some success using the free Cakewalk SFZ VSTi soundfont player. It did play the drum samples without chopping off the ends. However the mix of the drums seemed "off" with the snare drum being way too far up in the mix. I might have to do some more searching around for some more general VSTi soundfont players that allows for mixing of each individual note. I haven't tried SFZ+ yet but that one seems to have more features Hi Bobby again: I think your making a lot of work for yourself. The beauty of the sf2 was that all the parameters(the page & a half you listed) were already mapped and ready to play. I used soundfonts on my last computer with a creative audigy card. On this computer I have the free cakewalk sfz player and only use soundfonts now for a sketch pad. The problem you are having with the snare level may actually be the way sonic implants mixed the kit. The snare waves may need a volume cut. I would stick with the free sfz player since it works for you. I have no problem with it in realband. I think what you need is a "SOUNDFONT EDITOR" The editor that came with the creative card was called "Vienna". This editor would only work with a creative card. There is (or was) a free soundfont editor called "Viena". Try a search and see if it is still available. I think this is the road you should take instead of looking for the magic vst. As far as your Toms not playing with an EZ Drummer file untill a re-load of the vst.. Check the EZ Drummer Mixer..or more info needed. Another thought about your snare volume, again Iam using realband,but try..Edit>Change Velocities, then use the filter to change only one note(your snare). Bobby...

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums_EZ Drummer Bobby #173523 09/25/12 06:59 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12 C coloroo OP Newbie
OP coloroo Newbie C Joined: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	I found this article which way explain part of my problem with the soundfont mix being off. Some of the attenuation settings in my 2.1 soundfont differ from modern soundfont standards and are being translated incorrectly: http://home.exetel.com.au/reimerorgans/ART/Attenuation_Settings.htm So as an example, if the attenuation setting in the soundfont 2.1 format is 120 corresponding to -12 dB, what is really played in the original format is -5dB, and what sfz is playing is somewhere around -60dB, and if the setting in the soundfont 2.1 format is 10 corresponding to -1 dB, what is really played in the original format is -0.5dB, and what sfz is playing is somewhere around -5dB so, there's a HUGE disparity there in the sfz interpetation... the softer sounds are being rendered almost inaudible. I'm curious about a couple of things now. It there a VST out there that adheres to the Soundfont 2.1 standard to which this soundfont was written? I'm attempting to readjust the levels using an editor. Last edited by coloroo; 09/26/12 06:16 AM.

Re: VSTi, no sustain on MIDI drums_EZ Drummer coloroo #173524 09/26/12 03:37 PM PowerTracks Pro Audio
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,608 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,608 Mi., USA	You should be able to adjust the volume in an editor. You are on the the right track. One of the Vienna soundfont editors mentioned previously (by others) has this capability. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

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