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Re: Could You Live From Making Music? #174306 09/26/12 06:33 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: See, Notes, YOU have done it right, and are continuing to do it right. You actually WORK at your craft. <...> It's a business, I'm the business owner, and if I treat it like a business, it should take care of me. That means putting out a quality product, and trying to do better than my friends who are also my competitors. May the best act get the gig. If you want to succeed, you have to play the songs they want to hear (no big "I'm an artist and won't play that" ego), ... you have to watch and pace the audience playing the appropriate song at the right time (no set lists unless you are clairvoyant), ... when they are on the dance floor you have to go from song to song immediately, ... when they are eating dinner you have to play low enough so they can talk to each other across the table, ... when it's time to talk on the mic you have to have good mic skills, ... when it's not time to talk on the mic you have to keep your mouth shut, ... You have to realize that the audience came to see you, and to honor that kindness, you have to do your best to make sure they have a good enough time to want to come see you again. It's a dialog between the musicians and the audience and if you do it right you will both satisfy each others needs. Two rules make it easy: If you are playing a commercial venue, conduct yourself as if you were going to make the money that goes into the cash register and do your best to maximize that. That means making sure they have a good time and stay longer If you are playing a private party, conduct yourself as if you are the host of the party and you want your guests to leave with a smile on their face and a "thank you for a great party" on their lips. Do those two things and the rest of the decisions come easy. I don't mind being on the road, but I prefer not to and to do my traveling for fun instead of gigging. Fortunately the Band-in-a-Box sales make just enough so that I don't have to travel in August and September, the traditional dead months here in Southeastern Florida. I've played in almost all the lower 48 states, in Canada, on Cruise Ships in the Caribbean and all the way to the People's Republic of China. I enjoyed it all. It may be my bliss, but it's also my business. And a bad day at playing music is better than a good day at any other job I can think of. Take care of your business if you want it to take care of you. Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? #174307 09/27/12 12:47 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England	Quote: There is that "list" of 20 or so songs that I will NEVER play again. That will disqualify me from 98.6% of rooms everywhere. Eddie. It seems like I'm gonna have to agree with you again. One of the big problems with working full-time in music is that you don't get to play the stuff you like. It's great if you like something mainstream, like country, where there's a big following, but as often as not you find yourself playing YMCA (I happen to know that's one of Eddie's favorites) or Sugar Sugar in some cheezy pop band. If you're lucky enough to land a job in a studio, you still have to work with the full spectrum of music. In the late 80s I produced two Thrash-Metal albums, basically because no one else would take the job. You just have to take pride in producing the best product possible within the genre and think about the pay-check. When I was younger and needed the money more than I do now, this was acceptable, but times change, the kids leave home and it's time to re-evaluate. It's back to enjoying the music for less money. ROG. Last edited by ROG; 09/27/12 12:50 AM. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? ROG #174308 09/27/12 03:52 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 506 Midwest RobbMiller Journeyman
RobbMiller Journeyman Joined: Nov 2010 Posts: 506 Midwest	Quote: Sugar Sugar in some cheezy pop band. I thought the Archies were a Bubblegum Pop band. If they were a "cheezy pop band" they would have been singing "Cheddar, Cheddar".

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? RobbMiller #174309 09/27/12 04:33 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	There is no song I will not play, if I am able to play it and if I think it will go over well. Sure, there are songs I'd rather not call because my head tells me I don't want to play them (for whatever reason), but once I start playing them, it's just music and I find myself having a good time playing them in spite of myself. Day gig at the telephone company: I got out of full time music two times in my life, always playing music on the weekend. I did this because I thought I was supposed to have a real job, parental and societal pressure convinced me to give it a try. The first one was with the telephone company. This was long before cell phones. Climbing telephone poles are dangerous. There are only two kinds of pole climbers, those who have fallen off the pole, and those who haven't fallen off the pole YET!!! And when you fall, it isn't necessarily your fault. If the pole has shell rot, or if too many people have climbed it before, it is quite possible to fall with chunks of wood still attached to your spikes. This happened to me once, fortunately there was nothing but lawn to land on. So I was in this back yard. There were 4 chain link fences meeting at the telephone pole. There were metal garbage cans there too. If I would have fallen off this pole, landing or straddling one of those obstacles would not be very much fun (don't even want to think about it). I open the telephone terminal, and about 100 paper wasps had decided to build their home in the terminal, and they were not very happy about having the cover opened. Now here I am, two spikes buried about 1/16" in the pole, angry wasps, and any fast or careless move means I'll likely fall off the pole and land on one of the fences and garbage cans. As much as I hate wasp stings, that was the preferred option. So I carefully climb back down the pole. Fortunately the wasps didn't recognize me as the home-wrecker and I didn't get stung, but you can bet my pulse and respiration were going off the charts. So now if someone wants to hear "The Theme From New York, New York", or "Sugar Sugar", or "Elvira", or the "Electric Boogie", or even "The Chicken Dance", and if my mind resists, all I have to do is think about the wasps, and it's no problem. And the funny thing is, once the music starts, I put on that musical 'hat' and have a good time playing it. And it's give and take. I may play "Yakety Sax" or "New York" on the gig, but I will also play a number of songs that I really want to play and can't wait to call. And those requests really don't come up that often. Some of us think of ourselves as artists and playing something like that is beneath us. And that's OK for you. But remember, Beethoven, Mozart, Prokofiev, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, and other composers of the most artistic and complicated music the world has ever known all have composed things on consignment that the didn't want to do but had to satisfy a customer with. And Michelangelo didn't want to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. A highly trained chef might not want to prepare fish and chips, but if he found himself in the right part of the country, it ought to be on the menu along with his artistic specialties. I recall seeing an interview with Tony Bennett. The interviewer asked Tony if he ever got tired of singing "San Francisco." Tony replied with something like (I'll paraphrase), "How can I get tired of that song. It's the song that put me on the map, it's the song that my fans want to hear, and it's a great song." I gained a lot of respect for Tony after that. There are things I do not play though. I don't do rap or heavy metal. I'm not fond of either genre and fortunately the adult audience I chose in my 'business model' does not want to hear it. But if enough of my customers ask for a title, you can bet I'd learn it if I thought we could do it justice. Some of you think that playing particular songs is selling out. To me taking a day job so I can play only the songs I want to is a bigger sell out. But that is only my personal feeling on the subject, and not necessarily right for another. And I don't have a day job, other than gig times (which I look forward to) my time is my own and I get to pick and choose what I want to do, whether it is typing on the Internet, learning a new song, working on a new Band-in-a-Box style, or goofing off. All in all I put in much more than 40 hours on the job in a week, but other then when I wear the "Band Salesman" hat, none of it feels like work at all. That's why they call it playing music! Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Notes Norton #174310 09/27/12 05:55 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 479 Shores of Lake Erie Westside Steve Journeyman
Westside Steve Journeyman Joined: Nov 2008 Posts: 479 Shores of Lake Erie	Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop. WSS [b]Westside Steve www.westsidesteve.com www.YouTube.com/WestsideSteveSimmons

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? jazzmammal #174311 09/27/12 06:46 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: Quote: I have to pay more taxes than Romney does. I pay 15% self-employment tax and then my income tax on top of that. On the other hand there are deductions. Umm, no. I'm an Enrolled Agent, a tax pro. Most wealthy people including 99% of all polititians you could name have a lot of money in investments. Investments are made with after tax funds. That is they earned it, paid tax on it then bought the investment. This is why investment income is taxed at a much lower rate than earned income because the funds have already been taxed. Few people understand that. Investments are not guaranteed, people can and do lose money all the time. Some rich guy could lose a million bucks and how much can he write off that year? $3,000. $3,000?!? Yep that's it. Now, he can use that loss to offset future investment earnings but what if there isn't any? Then he takes 3 grand a year forever or until he dies, whichever comes first. If the government didn't give a tax break for those investments noboby would take the risk and invest in anything, they would just keep their after tax money in the bank at less than 1%. Not getting into any kind of political discussion at all here, just making a very basic and incomplete (very incomplete) tax comment. Bob Very nice lesson Bob, but this is how the laws are made, by the rich (even by proxy via campaign funds), to favor the rich. A person who invests in a business is a part owner of that business and indeed has some risk involved. Every self-employed business owner has some risk involved. I financed my two businesses on credit card debts, others take out mortgages on their homes, some have so much at risk that if their business venture fails, they would end up in a homeless shelter. Yet we self-employed pay 15% self-employment tax -- and our income tax on top of that. The money my fried spent on his dental supply business was money he paid income tax on, and took a second mortgage on his home for. The money I spent to buy keyboards, computers, sound modules, MIDI controllers on my credit card was money I already paid tax on. In my other business, saxophones, guitars, PA set, synthesizers flute, microphones, etc., were also financed on credit cards. Until my "business loan to myself" was paid off, I was definitely at risk for much more of my life than the upper 5% are. I have a relative who owned a furniture store. Enlarged it during the construction boom. The demand went down, he ended up declaring bankruptcy, the bank took his store, has home, the home his wife had before they were married, an apartment they owned, and left them living in a house they were holding in trust for their granddaughter until she turned 35. When granddaughter took possession of the house, he was dead, and his widow was left without even the home she owned when they got married. She is now a renter living on social security and his air force pension. So don't give me the Faux News line that the rich investors have more to lose. People like Romney and others could loose many millions of dollars and it won't affect their life style one bit. The fact that they are paying a smaller percentage of tax than my self-employment tax, is just because the rich rigged the game in their favor. And I chose Romney because it's current. He is definitely not the first, not the only one, and will not be the last. So don't count this as a political barb but instead a state of the union comment. We live and a Fascist republic now, according to the definition stated by the inventor of Fascism himself, Benito Mussolini, and I quote the translation from the Italian, "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." If the laws were fair, and if everybody paid their fair share instead of loading the highest percentage of tax burden on the middle classes, it would be much easier to make a living at being a musician. Insights and incites by Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Westside Steve #174312 09/27/12 06:53 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop. WSS And climbing telephone poles, and selling furniture, jewelry, or clothing, and working in a factory, and managing an apartment building, and managing someone's hedge funds, and driving a UPS truck, and being a CPA, and doing just about everything else as an employee (or as the corporate heads call it, a "wage slave"). It's not just the wasps. "Sugar Sugar" isn't bad at all. It has the same 12 notes as all of the works written by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Charlie Parker, Lennon & McCartney, Carole King, Dave Brubeck, and the rest. The difference between a weed and a flower is merely opinion. Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Notes Norton #174313 09/27/12 07:02 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 15,944 PeterGannon PG Music Staff
PeterGannon PG Music Staff Joined: May 2000 Posts: 15,944	>>> "Sugar Sugar" isn't bad at all. It has the same 12 notes as all of the works written by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Charlie Parker, Lennon & McCartney, Carole King, Dave Brubeck, and the rest. "Sugar Sugar" has 12 notes? Have Fun! Peter Gannon PG Music Inc.

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Westside Steve #174314 09/27/12 07:06 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,689 Henderson, NV C Curmudgeon Veteran
Curmudgeon Veteran C Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,689 Henderson, NV	Quote: Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop. WSS Got your point Steve, but there is "art" in machining, just as much as in music. When you take a blank of steel and machine it to fine tolerances, you are left with quite a sense of accomplishment. Just like music, the skill doesn't come over night. Don S. Songs of the Church - MP3 Player

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? PeterGannon #174315 09/27/12 08:01 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: <...> "Sugar Sugar" has 12 notes? More than that - but a lot of them are the same ones played over and over again Sure, I'd rather play "Prokofiev's 4th symphony", "Night In Tunisia", "Hotel California", "Sway", "Desifinado", "Beginnings" (Chicago), "Straight No Chaser", "Another Star", "Marche Slave", "Isle of the Dead", "Some Skunk Funk", "Locomotive Breath", "Danse Macabre", "You Can't Lose What You Never Had", "Layla", or a number of other songs, and there are plenty of songs on each gig that I really want to play, so if I need to play something corny, I just put on my corny 'hat' and have fun with it, if I need to play something worn out, I just try to play it as if it were still fresh and have fun with it. It's give and take. Give them the songs they like and if placed properly, they will take the songs you like. And if "Blue Rondo ala Turk" is over the heads of the audience, and "Sugar Sugar" isn't, it's more fun to play "Sugar Sugar". Each gig and each genre of music allows me to express a different side of me. I even enjoy "Yakety Say" once the music starts, although I would never call it and only do it on request. And that's the most worn out song I play. After all Peter, as you say, "Have fun!" If you can't have fun playing music, then you shouldn't try to make a living playing music. Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Notes Norton #174316 09/27/12 08:49 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England ROG Veteran
ROG Veteran Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 3,353 York, England	At one time, my musical integrity could be bought quite cheaply. I actually played "Sugar Sugar" whilst smiling and appearing to enjoy it. To my everlasting shame, I wrote music for advertising and product launches. I even wrote twenty minutes of mindless backing track for a promotional film by a firm manufacturing conveyor systems. One January when other work was scarce, I wrote thirty radio jingles. Arghhh! If you genuinely enjoy what you're doing that's great, otherwise you're just selling out. Now that I'm older and I live a simple life with a few simple friends(?), my integrity has gone up in price. It's still for sale, but it's more expensive! They do say that everything has it's price. ROG. Free online guitar lessons. Cours de guitare gratuit en ligne.

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? ROG #174317 09/27/12 11:35 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 123 B bupper Apprentice
bupper Apprentice B Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 123	ROG, wisdom comes with experience (age)

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Notes Norton #174318 09/27/12 11:54 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,697 Redondo Beach, Ca.	Quote: Sure, I'd rather play "Prokofiev's 4th symphony", "Night In Tunisia", "Hotel California", "Sway", "Desifinado", "Beginnings" (Chicago), "Straight No Chaser", "Another Star", "Marche Slave", "Isle of the Dead", "Some Skunk Funk", "Locomotive Breath", "Danse Macabre", "You Can't Lose What You Never Had", "Layla", or a number of other songs, and there are plenty of songs on each gig that I really want to play, so if I need to play something corny, I just put on my corny 'hat' and have fun with it, if I need to play something worn out, I just try to play it as if it were still fresh and have fun with it. Very well said Notes. I've done that many times, you have to give some to get some back. Mick, I mentioned that killer sax player Andy Suzuki. He told me that about 15 years ago he got the Muzak gig at their office in Hollywood. He's the arranger and sax player you hear on all that elevator music and he did it for over 10 years. He didn't even think about the concept of selling out or anything like that. He said he will be eternally grateful for that opportunity because he was on a regular corporate salary with benefits like anybody else in their offices, his work schedule was very flexible and it allowed him to develop his solo career. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Westside Steve #174319 09/28/12 03:16 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: Playing the crappiest cover song beats working in the nicest machine shop. WSS Having done both, I'd comment that it depends on your goals. If your goals include sending multiple kids to college, buying new cars occasionally, taking regular vacations, paying the mortgage off early on a house in a prestigious neighborhood, retiring with a pension and a 401k, and still having money leftover to buy all the music gear you want... the machine shop wins hands down. (But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.) https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Pat Marr #174320 09/28/12 03:41 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,653 Wauconda DrDan Veteran
DrDan Veteran Joined: Dec 2002 Posts: 12,653 Wauconda	Quote: (But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.) Pat, I am going to prove you wrong on this one . Today I am going to go into the day job and give one of my co-workers a standing ovation. As you well now its all about attitude and recognizing performace, any performance, which is above and beyond. It does happen even in the machine shops, just takes a keen eye to spot it.

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? DrDan #174321 09/28/12 04:06 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	Quote: Quote: (But, no one will ever applaud your performance in the machine shop.) Pat, I am going to prove you wrong on this one . Today I am going to go into the day job and give one of my co-workers a standing ovation. As you well now its all about attitude and recognizing performace, any performance, which is above and beyond. It does happen even in the machine shops, just takes a keen eye to spot it. I agree that people in a shop environment get rewarded and recognized for excellence... but I was talking about the standing ovation kind of applause... that's what I miss about performing in front of an audience... the immediate reinforcement of applause Even when rewards are doled out in a corporate environment, there is such a time lag between the deed being recognized and the official commendation that something is lost. Imagine trying to train a dog by giving him a treat 6 months after he jumped through the hoop. Motivation and a sense of accomplishment are inextricably tied to instant reinforcement. IMO, that's a big part of the reason why playing music is so addicting, and why most day jobs are so demoralizing. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Pat Marr #174322 09/28/12 04:16 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC Pat Marr Veteran
Pat Marr Veteran Joined: Oct 2008 Posts: 8,106 Winston-Salem, NC	regarding the theme of the original thread: perhaps a better question at most of our ages is whether playing music is a good way to supplement one's retirement income. I think it is. As stated before, I think that as boomers retire and have time on their hands, they will return to the patterns of their youth and seek live music again (but in different venues... instead of bars it will be in resorts, restaurants, clubs, wineries, parks, retirement communities etc) For the industrious soul who combines his musical experience with BIAB, then adds whatever business sense he has acquired in order to prospect for opportunities, the book of success is waiting to be written by us. Our generation has been inclined to have a vision and make things happen. Retirement is the next logical step in that progression. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ey71h8ep047758h/AAC12jNM0Hz9Q8zsh5iDeqNHa?dl=0

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? PeterGannon #174323 09/28/12 07:27 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA Danny C. Veteran
Danny C. Veteran Joined: Mar 2004 Posts: 6,713 USA	Peter & Notes, Well since I originally read this thread I have played two gigs (about 80 tunes in total) but thanks to you guys I still can't get Sugar Sugar out of my head! Later, Last edited by Danny C.; 09/28/12 07:29 AM. Danny C. www.dannycampo.com https://www.facebook.com/pages/Danny-Campo/379776252109306?skip_nax_wizard=true The More You Drink The Better I Sound

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Danny C. #174324 09/28/12 08:01 AM Off-Topic
A Anonymous Unregistered
Anonymous Unregistered A	"Billy don't be a hero......" Get THAT one out of your head!!! We haven't heard Bo Donaldson's name since. Much less The Heywoods.....

Re: Could You Live From Making Music? Danny C. #174325 09/28/12 08:05 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,446 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: Peter & Notes, Well since I originally read this thread I have played two gigs (about 80 tunes in total) but thanks to you guys I still can't get Sugar Sugar out of my head! Later, Sorry Actually, it's a well crafted pop song. It's kitsch, but then so many other pop songs are. We learned the song for a regular customer at a yacht club that we play regularly. It wasn't my first choice, but I have fun with it anyway, and surprisingly it often fills the dance floor. Notes Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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