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Has anyone tried this piano modelling software? http://www.pianoteq.com/There is a functional demo and the program doesn't take too much HDD space. I tried it about two years ago, and wasn't overly impressed, but am trying the latest version, and feel that it has some promise. It should be functional with my EMU 1820, but so far haven't had any success in setting it up (the problem lies in the fact that not having used the EMU for two years, I have to re-learn it  ). However, I've loaded MIDI files into Pianoteq and rendered them into WAV files, and quite like the results. The only drawback to the demo is that it won't play eight notes (F#1, G#1, A#1, C#5, D#5, F#5, G#5, and A#5). A song in G doesn't do too badly as long as one doesn't go too close to the ends of the keyboard. 
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Glenn, welcome back.
I haven't tried it - it's a physically modeled piano - so it shouldn't take up much hard drive space. I've been satisfied with my fumbly playing with the splendid soundfont.
-Scott
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I have it, Glenn, but I'm not sure it was a good purchase. It "feels" wonderful, absolutely responsive. It requires little disk space, it loads fast, and it doesn't demand too much from the computer. You can apparently run it on an unimpressive laptop with a tiny hard drive. You get an enormous amount of intelligent control over the tone.
But somehow the best sound I get is slightly wimpy -- although much better than the last version. They keep developing it at a fair rate, and I suspect the next version may be a wonder. It's certainly not a bad instrument now, but I have three or four huge old samples I like better, so I don't use PianoTeq as much as I optimistically expected. Unfortunately, that's not unusual after you buy a hot-shot new VI for many shekels, is it?
For my use, its convenience and ease of use do not quite compensate for the lightness of its sound.
Larry
______
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Thanks Scott - it's been quite a while (got tangled up in photography - my other creative pursuit). Allis: I agree with your assessments - it is a bit wimpy, but a fair bit better than my three year old Roland KR7 (which has a really nice keyboard feel, and models the damper pedal from zero to 127 in one step increments - something many digitals do not do). When I load a KR7 recorded midi into Pianoteq, it gets this part right. I have an EMU 1820M with Emulator X, and it's a disaster as it can't handle all the pedal control steps generated by the Roland. And for the price and size of samples, I'm not ready for that. A small footprint on my HDD is important as I have acquired 16,000 digital images in two years. Installed, Pianoteq takes 149 MB versus 138 MB for Powertracks 11. For HDD mercy, my favourite music software is my wave editor (Goldwave) that uses a whopping 8.81 MB. I tried Pianoteq 2 1/2 years ago, and didn't care for it, but the present version seems a lot better - and I suspect with time it will be the way to go as it can be tailored to produce so many piano sounds.
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"Small footprint" (meaning small filesize) and "Grand Piano Sample" are mutually exclusive terms.
Velocity layers are where it is at IMO. This means large filesize, such as in some of the great Gigapianos (Holy Grail, Bosendorfer, etc.). Not all gigasampled piano files are created equal either, further complicating things, some sound like the layers were derived via manipulating maybe only three basic velocity layers, soft, medium, loud.
The damper pedal thang is neat, but is the least of the concerns for getting a great grand piano sound out of the PC. Know this to be true from doing double blindfold A-B comparison tests with many people who think they are blessed with the Golden All-Seeing Ear, yours truly is included. <g>
How to test the layers:
Helps to open up a VU meter so one can see the amplitude levels.
Strike a key as softly as you can and still be able to hear the sound. Repeat several times while noting the VU reading.
Now strike the same key a little harder (faster) and note the VU reading again while listening to the sound.
Repeat.
If you find only three levels of output while playing maybe six or seven levels of velocity, you know what you've got there then, a sample that is lacking in velocity layers. Not good for simulating the instrument that was named the soft-loud (pianoforte).
*Important: Don't ruch to conclusions concerning ANY piano model or sample until you have thoroughly investigated the Velocity Sends and Curves setup of your keyboard with each one! Can make a world of difference sometimes.
--Mac
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A bit more information on piano samples/modelling software - a comparison between the Bluthner Digital Model One (BDMO) and seven others: http://www.proaudiovault.com/bdmo-comparison.htmThere are eight samples; one must keep in mind that the BDMO sample will be "offered" in the best possible light. For example, not all samples seem to have used the same midi file - at the beginning of the Garritan Steinway sample (a major competitor), the tempo of the phrasing is quicker than that of the BDMO (and others). The BDMO seems quite good - surprisingly it's much smaller than the other sampled pianos too.
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Hi Glenn, Pianoteq is being -> discussed at times here on this forum. Hugh Sung may give you a further -> intro …
Martin
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Update (for those like me that play solo piano): I was quite serious about getting into sample libraries two years ago, and in the process, found this interesting site: http://www.purgatorycreek.com/The tests of each sample and/or digital piano was created with a short midi file (which can be downloaded from the site). At the time, I was really impressed with the sound from some of the better ones; Synthogy Ivory and EastWest Quantum Leap Pianos. Tonight I visited the Purgatory Creek site again, and downloaded some mp3 files and compared them with the file generated by Pianoteq from the midi file noted above (pianotest.mid). These are the ones I compared (I used my wave editor to load all seven files at once for easy comparison): Ivory Bosendorfer Yamaha Digital Piano Gran Touch Bardstown Bosendorfer EastWest QL Steinway EastWest Bosendorfer Native Instruments Akoustik Piano - Bechstein pianotest1 with Pianoteq Compared to the Pianoteq rendering, some were quite bad, and some like the Akoustik were actually wretched sounding. The vaunted Ivory Bosendorfer doesn't stack up to Pianoteq. Earlier today, I went back to some of the library sites and downloaded samples of some classical piano so I could compare them with the same pieces I generated with midi files and Pianoteq. The selections I used were the Debussey's Arabesque and Claire de Lune, and Beethoven's Pathetique (2nd movement) and the Moonlight. I was literally stunned at the difference between the sampled renditions and the Pianoteq ones. The selections created with the libray samples were simply not of the quality of the ones I created with Pianoteq.
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I like the Pianoteq very much. It is based on physical modeling, so "Layers" and 'samples' do not apply to it, and it can do very soft passages to loud very well. Low notes and high notes also.
I also feel my MIDI keyboards don't do it justice, and so would some downloaded MIDI files, for, how were they created? With a good responsive MIDI keyboard or with a regular low-end one like mine?
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NoKey: Yes, the concepts of layers, sample size have nothing to do with it. Sample have to use layers to achieve different velocity (volume), but PT generates the appropriate value for each note. What's really interesting is the ability to change the level of Sympathetic Resonance to mimic a real piano. This is the first thing I noticed when listening to the songs generated from samples - there is little if any sympathetic resonance, and the sound just falls off without the resonance of all the strings (with the dampers off). The midi files I used for the classical pieces were from: http://www.classicalarchives.com/One must register to access files. There are two types of memberships: No fee with limited access to five midi downloads per 24 hours and can't download wave/mp3 files. A $25 per year fee with unlimited access to all files; not limited in any way. I've also found other midi files at: http://www.vanbasco.com/midisearch.htmlFor classical piano, I just type in the composer's name suchas chopin or beethoven. It also works for all composers (rodgers, hammerstein, etc). Virtually all the files have only one value for Pedal Control (controller number 64 = 127) and some have half-pedal values of 64. So from this I wouldn't think the keyboards were all that great, but it's hard to tell. My own Roland can generate all Pedal Control values from zero to 127. While it would be nice to have multiple values for the dampers, I'm not convinced it's really necessary. Have a listen to the Purgatory Creek recordings - they've have dozens of various digital pianos recorded, plus all the sample libraries that are available - it's quite an education to see how bad some are and how good some others are. And using the pianotest.mid file, you can test your own keyboard.
Last edited by Glenn Kolot; 12/15/08 11:32 PM.
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Quote:
I also feel my MIDI keyboards don't do it justice, and so would some downloaded MIDI files, for, how were they created? With a good responsive MIDI keyboard or with a regular low-end one like mine?
Likely has to do with the amount of Velocity layers your particular keyboard is able to send.
For instance, I had a Yamaha plastic MIDI keyboard that only sent Velocity in three basic layers -- if you fingered in between any of the three, there was no difference in what came out.
This is one of the things that costs more money in a good MIDI keyboard whether it features weighted hammer action keys or not, its ability to send the actual Velocity data from each key rather than an approximation thereof.
When testing or checking out a piano keyboard, try pressing a key near the center of the board at as many different dynamic levels as you can play and see if the sound coming out changes with your amount of pressure (volume). With a bit of practice one can tell if there are three basic velocity levels or whatever. It gets harder to tell when there about seven layers, and, of course, the high end keyboards that send continuous velocity, using the entire range of 0 - 127 do it the best.
Also note that a lot of MIDI keyboards have internal menu controls for the Velocity CURVE.
Often is the case that the default Velocity Curve doesn't do justice, try some of the others and narrow down the Velocity Curve settng that works best for your playing style. Finding the right Velocity Curve to match your playing style can sometimes really make a difference in the way a low end keyboard plays and sounds. For example, having your Velocity Curve or Touch set to "Light" can end up with the thing sending high value Vel to the synth, which would make every note sound like it was pounded. Turn the Velocity Touch setting down then and try again. I've noticed that the majority of keyboards come with the default setting on the light side of things, Yamahas have been that way for years, but not all of them...
--Mac
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Mac makes a good point (although I was at first confused by the term velocity layers).
A top notch keyboard will recognize and generate all 128 velocity levels for every key on the piano.
Another method that doesn't involve listening is to record a midi file by playing on your keyboard with varying degrees of loudness as you play. The simplest would be to play several notes at loudnesses varying from ppp to fff (note that there are keyboards that will not recognize the entire range - this has been discussed on the Pianoteq forum).
With the midi file saved, load it into Powertracks, and look at the Event List. The Velocity of every note is displayed, and they shouldn't fall into discreet velocity levels.
And read Mac's entire post carefully, particularly the last few paragraphs - there is a lot of information there that is important - especially the part about the response or touch curve of your keyboard.
Incidentally, Pianoteq can be adjusted to "react" to different ranges of velocity. The lower right corner of the interface is an Equalizer/Velocity curve. The velocity range is from zero to 125 (don't know why it isn't 127). Using the mouse, the range can be adjusted to better suit your keyboard. The default line consists of three points that form a straight line, but many more points can be added, and the straight line can be modified into many different velocity response curves. The simplest of course is to maintain the linear response curve (straight line) and define the range from zero to something less than 125 (say 100).
Last edited by Glenn Kolot; 12/16/08 08:38 AM.
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Gary,
Awhile back I had to play at a church as a guest and didn't bring my own keyboard, because they told me that they had one of the good Yamahas there.
Got there and wasn't supposed to play until last, so I sat out in the church and listened to the other groups. Even the home church's choir/band, the piano sounded like someone banging as hard as they could the whole time. The young lady was compensating by turning the Volume fader down. But the sound of the thing was PLUNK, PLANK, PLUNK, the Volume fader just made it less apparent.
When I got to the stage, we were to go on last, the first thing I did was start punchin' those buttons on that Yammy frantically, trying to remember how to get that thing into Velocity Curve or Touch edit mode. Finally found the right menu item, no time for esoterics, I set the thing to "Hard" touch and played our part of the show.
I think Yamaha sampled that same model C once and have used it in every keyboard since then. They do have a distinctive sound that can be quite nice in a mix, but only once you get that critical Velocity Curve set to match your playing style. They come with a default that is just too light, man. And if you are using it as Controller keyboard to fire other synths, the Yammies simply send Velocity data that is too high most of the time.
When we got done, I tried to show the young lady what was up, but she was more interested in how "easy" the piano was to play than how it sounded, so I returned it back to the "Soft" setting that made it sound like Bang, Bang, Bang.
People.
Doing themselves in more often than not...
--Mac
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Another church gig, I sat down behind the MIDI piano and our choir started the piece A Capella.
When it came time for the band to come in, I suddenly discovered that the last player of the piano was one of those "one key" players who used the MIDI Transpose to play in one key, likely C, while the notes come out in another. They got up and left the Piano like that, one would think that if they changed such a parameter that they would have the courtesy to remember to CHANGE IT BACK, so that Middle C was Middle C again.
Whoa.
Quick transpose and a good ear on my part saved the day, We were supposed to be in Eb but I ended up playing the song in Db fingering -- but those first three notes I played were in an entirely different key and the whole thing took me quite by surprise to say the least. What the... ??? That was funny. The funniest thing was Tony, the bass player, he gave me a look like you wouldn't believe when I made that bad entrance like that...
--Mac
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An update for piano players Version 3.0 of Pianoteq was released today: http://www.pianoteq.com/1. Bass "punch" greatly improved. 2. Added microphone placement - up to five mics which can be placed in any position by dragging with the mouse. Also has a Binaural setting (headphones). If anyone has a piano MIDI file that they would like to hear done with Pianoteq (mp3) to judge the sound, I hereby volunteer. Or it can be any one of a number of classical piano compositions that I have midi files for (none of these were played by me - I found dozens on the web). Glenn
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Glen,
I have been sold on physically modelled keyboards for several years. I do have a modelled wurly, rhodes and B3. I don't have an acoustic piano PM based synth.
Pianoteq is on the list of 'When I win the lottery I'm gonna.....', but since I don't play the lottery, I'll probably be waiting awhile.
However, if Guido S. of GSi ever comes around to do a lower cost VSTi of an acoustic piano, I'll probably be picking it up. He does a very nice job of modeling sympathetic resonances, grit and grunge, etc. of the electromechanical boards. I'm thinking that if anyone is up to the task of it, he is.
-Scott
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Thanks for the heads up, Glenn. It's a great update!
Martin
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