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Quote:
But really the Gb kind of disqualifies it as an A-anything.
Am6. Flat the 5 and you've got the notes for an Adim which is a Cdim. Which is what Mac said. And like I said, a VI chord. Don't forget, Peter asked about the Cdim in the context of the KEY OF C.
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I think the Cdim7 moving to Dm7 sounds good because it's resolving as it should and in a way our ears are expecting.
Dim7th chords are classified as chromatic harmony and usually if you chromatically alter a note, it resolves in the same direction as it was altered. If you sharpen a note it will resolve upwards and if you flatten a note it will resolve downwards.
So for example, if you changed C Major chord to C augmented, the G# should resolve up a semitone to A. When we play Caug Chord then F Major chord, the release of tension from the G# to the A sounds right and pleasant.
In Cdim7 the Eb and Gb are, as already mentioned, appoggiaturas to D and F, so by lowering the the Eb and Gb a semitone to D and F, the result is smooth and they are resolving in a theoretically (what a horrible word to spell!) correct way.
The resulting Dm7 (C,D,F,A) releases the tension in a way that is expected and "comforting" to our ears.
Nice!
What you are saying is if it sounds good it is good!
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The ear is the final judge in the end I guess. So if it works and it sounds good, go for it!
yjoh
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Since I don't know music theory as well as many of you do, I probably shouldn't make a complete fool out of myself by posting these ideas. However, after studying the progressions, this is what I perceive...
Note: "nr" indicates Peter's terminology of no root or subbing one of the other chordal tones for the root.
C | Cdim | Dm7 | G | > Peter's Progression
C | F7b9/nr | Dm7 | G | > Peter's "nr" representation
C | F | Dm7 | G | > Simplified progression
C | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | G | > Peter's Progression
C | D7b9/nr | Dm7 | G | > Peter's "nr" representation
C | D7 | Dm7 | G | > Simplified progression
F | F#dim7 | C/G | A7 | > Peter's Progression
F | B7b9/nr | C/G | A7 | > Peter's "nr" representation
F | B7 | C | A7 | > Simplified progression
Conclusion: The Cdim7 family of chords are related to other chords in the key of C by altering basic chords into more interesting sounding chords.
JBlatz
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Whoops!
Looks like I made a spelling error...
The double-flat seventh would be A, which makes Cdim7 an inversion of an Adim7. Fits right into the rhythm changes as a sub for the iim7 chord in C.
Last edited by flatfoot; 01/18/13 06:20 PM.
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You're not getting it yet.
The dim7 chord consists of the 1, b3, b5 and dom7 notes.
In C, that would be C, Eb, Gb and Bb.
No A involved here.
The dim7 is another way of saying, Cm7b5 or also sometimes called the Half Diminished.
The full Diminished chord would change the Bb to the A.
--Mac
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Mac,
My theory books give Cdim7 as C Eb Gb Bbb (which translates as C Eb Bb A).
Most of the books usually explain the term 'diminished' using the following: the harmonic intervals C to B = major 7th; C to Bb = minor 7th; C to Bbb = diminished 7th. That is, for an interval to be diminished, it's 2 semitones lower than the major interval and 1 semitone lower than the minor interval.
The exception to the above occurs when perfect intervals are used (e.g. perfect 4th, perfect 5th and perfect 8th). In one of the 'perfect' intervals, there are no minor intervals and the term diminished means "one semitone lower than perfect". Thus C to Gb is a diminished 5th and E to Bbb is also a diminished 5th. My understanding of the diminished 7th chord is that much of its power comes from the fact that it contains two diminished 5th intervals.
Classically, a diminished 7th chord usually resolves by contracting the two diminished 5th intervals to two intervals of a 3rd (major or minor) without worrying about what doubling occurs.
Noel
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Mac,
Your explanation of things are always easy to understand, really clear, but I'm confused myself now. Do jazz players think of dim7ths differently than the way "traditional" theory explains them?
Dim7ths to me are 1 b3 b5 bb7 giving Cdim7th notes as C, Eb, Gb, Bbb. A series of minor 3rd intervals.
I'd call the 1, b3, b5, with the dom7 a half diminished 7th, or Cm7b5
Unfortunately I've never played in a jazz band situation, so is it the norm for jazz players to play the half dim 7th instead of the full dim7th?
I love these discussions, there's always something new to learn.
yjoh
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For me, a dim7 is C-Eb-Gb-A (or Bbb). C-Eb-Gb-Bb is Cm7b5 Later, Ray
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>>>...In C, that would be C, Eb, Gb and Bb....>>>
Oh. In that case I was spelling it right the first time. Then I went to that most indisputable of all reference resources, Band-in-a-Box. I typed in "Cdim7." The screen showed "Cdim." The notes that appear in the piano part are "C-Eb-Gb-A." So I am back to not being entirely clear on the concept.
Can you clear this up?
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The confusion lies in the difference between a diminished chord and a diminished 7 chord. Most of us (I know I'm guilty of this) treat them as the same chord, but they're actually not. A diminished chord hosts minor 3rd intervals between all the chord tones, in other words, 1-minor3-b5-bb7. A diminished 7th chord is actually another way of naming a half dimished chord, which is a minor 7b5 chord. Intervals are 1-minor3-b5-b7. We've all just gotten used to treating them as the same chord. No big deal, when you're blowin' over the chords they pass by in an instant. 
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This is interesting isn't it!
So basically you are saying that when you see a dim7 chord, you really are seeing it as a diminished chord add 7, rather than a dim7th chord. Have I got it right?
yjoh
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Quote:
This is interesting isn't it!
So basically you are saying that when you see a dim7 chord, you really are seeing it as a diminished chord add 7, rather than a dim7th chord. Have I got it right?
I would have seen a regular diminished chord. What I should have seen was a minor7b5 chord. To be honest, all of the arrangers I've ever played for would write it as a m7b5, not as a dim7. There was a time, I'm assuming, when the naming convention dictated that it be written as a dim7, but in my experience haven't seen it written as such. Naming conventions have been and still are evolving. Example, what used to be written as a C7sus4 is now sometimes written as a Bb/C. I had a difficult time getting used to sight reading those slash chords on lead sheets. Still do, lol. 
So what Mac stated in his post about the dim7 chord was indeed correct.
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That's right Bob,
That's how I know and spell the three chords as well. But from what Ikmuller said"
"A diminished 7th chord is actually another way of naming a half dimished chord",
I thought maybe amongst in jazz players, the dim7th and the half dim7th are used interchangeably, melody notes permitting or it was being understood as a diminished chord with an added b7.
So many different ways to lable a chord.
yjoh
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yjoh,
Actually a dim7 and a m7b5, (or half dim), are two DIFFERENT chords with one note difference, b7 vs bb7.
They're often used interchangeably, but on very rare occassions that one note difference may be a problem.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 01/18/13 09:44 PM.
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Yes, that's the whole crux of the matter, naming conventions evolving. It makes it difficult at times, that's why to write Cm7b5 is a better way to describe the half diminished 7th. No doubt then.
From the traditional theory angle here, if I had a student who in a theory exam paper wrote the notes C,Eb,Gb,Bb for a Cdim7th chord, I would mark them wrong. I would tell them that they had written the notes for the C half diminished 7th chord.
Good discussion!
yjoh
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All the posts are getting crossed here. LOL I'm a slow typist! Yes, I know Bob, if you look back through my previous posts on this topic and the one just before this one, you'll see that I do know they are different. Thanks for clearing up that they are used interchangeably. I'd better learn to type quicker. This is fun though!  Edited as I left a bit out. Maybe typing quicker isn't such a good idea after all!
Last edited by yjoh; 01/18/13 09:58 PM.
yjoh
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Thanks Noel.
There appeared to be some confusion building so I thought if I just laid the chords out together with a simple formula and the note names that it would help clear it up.
Take care.
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