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Joined: Jul 2000
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Expert
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Bob, you're correct. It's the half diminished 7th chord that's also known as the minor7b5. The diminshed 7th is indeed a diminished triad with a bb7 added. This has been an interesting thread. I really enjoyed the read!
Last edited by lkmuller; 01/19/13 12:08 AM.
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That's how I understand and teach them too. Thanks from me as well Bob. It's a good clear chart. Now I'm off to watch the tennis...Federer and Tomic, should be good! 
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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I'm glad you posted that. I was starting think I was missing something.
Must go...tennis has started!
'Night all
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
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You’re welcome guys. I’m glad I could contribute. As far as Peter’s original question of: Quote:
But how about a chord like Cdim7 (or its similar cousins Ebdim7,F#dim7. They occur commonly in the key of C, but how are they related to the key of C?
For example, these are common chord progressions:
C | Cdim7 | Dm7 | G7
C | Ebdim7 | Dm7 | G7
F | F#dim7 | C/G | A7
Is the Cdim7 related to some other chords in the key of C in some way?
I wouldn’t touch that one with a 10 ft pole because I don’t have a clue what the correct answer to that is! LOL. 
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Bob,
I think the solution is, as a number of people have already mentioned, that the diminished chords are really a variation of chord vi (Am). It comes about because Adim7, Cdim7 and Ebdim7 are all the same chord. (This is what I tried to explain in my first post in this thread. Then I got overly self-indulgent in theory and probably scared people off!)
My take on it is that the REAL progressions are ...
C | Adim7/C | Dm7 | G7
C | Adim7/Eb | Dm7 | G7
They make sense as simply different inversions of the Adim7 chord. From a music reading point of view, though, it's much easier to read Cdim7 or Ebdim7 rather than Adim7/C and Adim7/Eb, respectively.
Near the end of my earlier post, I put a link to an audio file where different versions of chord vi are played (including the above diminished chords). To my ear, all the chords sound like they fulfill the role of a version of chord vi. It would be interesting if they sound like that to you too.
With Peter's last chord progression,
F | F#dim7 | C/G | A7
My thoughts are as follows ...
C/G is often thought of (classically, at least) as a G chord with a suspended 4th and 6th rather than a C chord.
From this perspective, F#dim7 is a substitute for D7 in the same way that Bdim7 is a substitute for G7. In this regard, Fdim7 can be thought of D7b9 without the bass. For this reason, I see the progression as a variation of D7 to G.
All the best,
Noel
EDIT: Corrected wrongly named chord ii to chord vi
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Noel,
You’re more schooled in music theory than I am, so I’m a little confused by your reference to the “chord ii” in the key of C as Am.
I’m self taught in music theory, but Am or Am7 is the vi chord in the key of C, or the relative minor. It gives us the pure or natural minor scale, also known as the Aeolian Mode.
How does referring to Am in the key of C as a “chord ii” fit in? Wouldn't "chord ii" be Dm, aka the supertonic?
Just an old country boy askin’.
Thanks
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Hi Bob, I'm sorry. My brain obviously needs a grease and oil change! Quote:
Am or Am7 is the vi chord in the key of C
You're absolutely correct. Chord ii is Dm and I should have written chord vi for Am. I've fixed up the previous post. Thanks for giving me the heads-up while I still have the chance to fix what I wrote
Apologies for the confusion,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Quote:
Hi Bob,
Thanks for posting your comments.
Quote:
A diminished chord is a triad and the formula is 1-b3-b5.
Cdim = C – Eb – Gb
http://chord-c.com/guitar-chord/C/diminished/
A diminished 7 chord has 4 notes and the formula is 1-b3-b5-bb7.
Cdim7 = C – Eb – Gb – Bbb
http://chord-c.com/guitar-chord/C/diminished-seventh/
A minor 7 flat 5 chord has 4 notes and the formula is 1-b3-b5-b7. It’s also called a half diminished chord.
Cm7b5 = C – Eb – Gb – Bb
http://chord-c.com/guitar-chord/C/minor-seventh-flat-fifth/
That's exactly how I understand the chords too.
Noel
That is exactly how I was taught them also.
I think my wife has started to show the first signs of dementia.
She said she can't remember what she ever saw in me!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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