|
Log in to post
|
Print Thread |
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 70
Enthusiast
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 70 |
The last time I did a serious study of major piano scales was some 45 years ago. I could swear that back then I was taught that almost all major scales for the right hand, black and white keys, started with the thumb.
I have recently revisited major scales and the books I read show black key scales (for right hand) starting with the second finger. Is my memory wrong or has there been a change of thinking where major scales are concerned? My original teaching came from a rather good jazz pianist, I am trying to determine if he was perhaps doing something a little unorthodox, if my memory is incorrect, or if there has been a change in thinking.
I figured MAC would probably know the answer to this, or - is there anyone else?
Woody - Sacramento
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,390 |
Hi Woody, In my experience, the thumb almost never plays a black note. It's just not comfortably designed to do so. One situation where the thumb works on black keys is in playing the C# pentatonic scale which consists of only the black note (C# D# F# G# A #). In other scales, the thumb will usually play the first white note that follows a group of black notes. For example, the scale of C# major would be C# (finger 2), D# (finger 3), E# (thumb), F# (finger 2), etc. The below site gives the scales as I pretty much remember them. http://www.pianomother.com/Major_Scale.htmlRegards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 70
Enthusiast
|
|
OP
Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 70 |
@Noel
Yes, I remember one of the respected classical artists saying something like - "short fingers for white keys and long fingers for black ones."
Woody - Sacramento
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
Hey Woodie,
Don't know if its yer memory or someone taught it wrong, but the fingerings for this were all worked out several centuries ago.
I don't need to go into all the proper fingerings, for they will be shown in any good scale book and likely the information is also available for free online in more than several places.
Suffice it to say that in the RH, there are several scales that start on the second finger. And that only makes sense if you try to plays, say a Bb Major scale starting with the thumb. The crossover to thumb from 3rd note D to 4th note Eb is impoosible when attempting to finger it same as say, C Major scale.
When practicing your scale fingerings, don't neglect the chromatic scale, up and down. That's one useful mutha, or, as an old improvisation teacher used to say, "redemption is always only a half step away..."
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
There is a fabulous method for teaching scale fingering that I've been using for nearly thirty years now. This is an shortened extract from the book where I first learnt about it. Others might find it useful. "Ernest Hutcheson (d. 1951) was a pianist, composer, author and former head of Julliard School of Music. He taught the fingering to all the major and minor scales according to four easy rules concerning the principle of where the 4th finger goes. He strongly advised against teaching scale fingerings by thumb positions or even to care where the thumb falls. There is always a three note group and a four note group someplace within each scale. Since the first, second and third fingers are used twice in each of the two groups, while the fourth is used only once, the principle becomes knowing where the fourth finger goes. THE FOUR RULES (two for each hand) RIGHT HAND 1. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A WHITE KEY(except the scales of F) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON THE SEVENTH DEGREE OF THE SCALE. 2. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A BLACK KEY (and the scales of F) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON Bb (or A#). WHEN THERE IS NO Bb (or A#) IN THE SCALE, THE FOURTH FINGER GOES ON THE SECOND DEGREE. LEFT HAND 1. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A WHITE KEY (except the scales of B) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON THE SECOND DEGREE OF THE SCALE. 2. IN SCALES BEGINNING ON A BLACK KEY (and the scales of B) PUT THE FOURTH FINGER ON F# (or Gb). WHEN THERE IS NO F# (or Gb) IN THE SCALE, THE FOURTH FINGER GOES ON THE FOURTH DEGREE. There are only two exceptions to the above rules, both occurring in the melodic minor ascending scales. They are: RH F# melodic minor ascending LH Bb melodic minor ascending That is the end of the extract. (Whew!) It took me a bit to get the rules in my head, but now I find students pick it up much more easily than the thumb turning rules. Hope this info is helpful or at least an interesting read. 
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,032
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 21,032 |
@yjoh
That is a sensational piece of advice. I wish I had been taught using that technique when I studied.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards, Trevor
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
Glad to share it Trevor, it works brilliantly. It was in a book on piano improvisation and I'm so pleased I bought it. Used it ever since.
All the best!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,448
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 2,448 |
Rule of thumb......?
Last edited by Keith from Oz; 01/22/13 06:47 PM.
Cheers,
Keith
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
That truly is another way to view scales, particularly so for the wanting improviser, so many get drilled into the "starting on the 1" linearity only to find that they must relearn somewhat to be able to grab scale lines from the inside and not be stuck suddenly having run out of fingers or the like.
It also supports my prevailing theory that, in music, there are many different ways to perceive the same event, situation, theory, etc. - and though different, each way may prove to be quite valid.
An example of that is all of the piano students who were taught to curl the hands when playing, the old "classic" method, then along came Flat-Handed Vladimir Horowitz, who ran rings around most of the others and also had his own identifiable touch when playing the exact same pieces. Faster. With more brilliance. With interpretation. I actually had a piano teacher, when I pointed out Horowitz's hand positioning after viewing him perform on TV, tell me some malarky about how that might be good for Horowitz, but he was somehow much greater than the whole, or something. I decided not to listen to that teacher. That decision didn't turn me into Horowitz, but it did help me improve on a few issues.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
Have just finished watching a great Serena Williams/Sloane Stephens tennis match. Fabulous!! Back to the topic....So very true Mac...many different ways to tackle musical issues. Every student is different and needs a different approach, so the more ideas and methods we have of explaining things the better. I think every ones hand is different and shouldn't be made to conform to a one particular shape. Some pieces need curled fingers for sparkle and clarity but with a lot of the romantic period pieces, the fingers are straighter. Different approaches again. The main thing in the end, is relaxation (sadly overlooked quite a bit I've found), no physical pain and a musical result. Music should be fun! Good thread!
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502
Veteran
|
|
Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 38,502 |
So true.
One thing that really helped change my hand shape and approach on the piano was when I added the Hammond Organ. Had to learn that the organ is not touch sensitive. Also had to learn that the better way to play fast lines on the organ keyboard involved keeping the top of the hand rather flat in shape, rather than curling fingers to be ready to articulate velocities. That, BTW is the awful sign of a pianist who just encontered the organ. She's up there pounding away -- but the dynamics are static. Takes some practice to be able to use that Expression Pedal while playing a line.
The old tried and true pipe organist's method of placing a largish coin on top of each hand while practicing the organ scales and runs without letting those coins drop from outlandish hand curling and pounding can really go a long way towards getting through that period of adjustment.
Then, I found that I had to be thinking hard about which was which when having to play gigs where both the Piano and Organ were the issue. After awhile, though, like all things involved with the manipulation of our various instruments, repetition, the embarrassment of bad mistakes, all goes towards the place where something like this becomes a matter of rote. Today, it is the sound of the instrument that leads me to play it one way or the other. It is also the big reason that I don't like to play organ patches on weighted MIDI piano keyboards.
--Mac
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box for Windows
|
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191
Apprentice
|
|
Apprentice
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 191 |
It was good to read your post on the finger action needed for the organ. I don't play or teach the organ and piano students often ask if playing an organ is the same as playing the piano.
I've always said no they use different techniques, explaining (with my limited knowledge of organ techniques) that organ playing needs a sliding action whereas piano playing is a downward weight action.
Thanks Mac, a great help from someone who plays both.
yjoh
[i]Music...a joy for life.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Band-in-a-Box 2026 for Windows Special Offers End Tomorrow (January 15th, 2026) at 11:59 PM PST!
Time really is running out! Save up to 50% on Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® upgrades and receive a FREE Bonus PAK—only when you order by 11:59 PM PST on Thursday, January 15, 2026!
We've added many major new features and new content in a redesigned Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
Version 2026 introduces a modernized GUI redesign across the program, with updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, and a new Dark Mode option. There’s also a new side toolbar for quicker access to commonly used windows, and the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, making it easier to customize your workspace.
Another exciting new addition is the new AI-Notes feature, which can transcribe polyphonic audio into MIDI. You can view the results in notation or play them back as MIDI, and choose whether to process an entire track or focus on specific parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
Upgrade your Band-in-a-Box for Windows to save up to 50% on most Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade packages!
Plus, when you order your Band-in-a-Box® 2026 upgrade during our special, you'll receive a Free Bonus PAK of exciting new add-ons.
If you need any help deciding which package is the best option for you, just let us know. We are here to help!
Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® Special Offers Extended Until January 15, 2026!
Good news! You still have time to upgrade to the latest version of Band-in-a-Box® for Windows® and save. Our Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® special now runs through January 15, 2025!
We've packed Band-in-a-Box® 2026 with major new features, enhancements, and an incredible lineup of new content! The program now sports a sleek, modern GUI redesign across the entire interface, including updated toolbars, refreshed windows, smoother workflows, a new dark mode option, and more. The brand-new side toolbar provides quicker access to key windows, while the new Multi-View feature lets you arrange multiple windows as layered panels without overlap, creating a flexible, clutter-free workspace. We have an amazing new “AI-Notes” feature. This transcribes polyphonic audio into MIDI so you can view it in notation or play it back as MIDI. You can process an entire track (all pitched instruments and drums) or focus on individual parts like drums, bass, guitars/piano, or vocals. There's an amazing collection of new content too, including 202 RealTracks, new RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, “Songs with Vocals” Artist Performance Sets, Playable RealTracks Set 5, two RealDrums Stems sets, XPro Styles PAK 10, Xtra Styles PAK 21, and much more!
There are over 100 new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®.
When you order purchase Band-in-a-Box® 2026 before 11:59 PM PST on January 15th, you'll also receive a Free Bonus PAK packed with exciting new add-ons.
Upgrade to Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows® today! Check out the Band-in-a-Box® packages page for all the purchase options available.
Happy New Year!
Thank you for being part of the Band-in-a-Box® community.
Wishing you and yours a very happy 2026—Happy New Year from all of us at PG Music!
Season's Greetings!
Wishing everyone a happy, healthy holiday season—thanks for being part of our community!
The office will be closed for Christmas Day, but we will be back on Boxing Day (Dec 26th) at 6:00am PST.
Team PG
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: The Newly Designed Piano Roll Window
In this video, we explore the updated Piano Roll, complete with a modernized look and exciting new features. You’ll see new filtering options that make it easy to focus on specific note groups, smoother and more intuitive note entry and editing, and enhanced options for zooming, looping, and more.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Band-in-a-Box 2026 Video: AI Stems & Notes - split polyphonic audio into instruments and transcribe
This video demonstrates how to use the new AI-Notes feature together with the AI-Stems splitter, allowing you to select an audio file and have it separated into individual stems while transcribing each one to its own MIDI track. AI-Notes converts polyphonic audio—either full mixes or individual instruments—into MIDI that you can view in notation or play back instantly.
Watch the video.
You can see all the 2026 videos on our forum!
Bonus PAK and 49-PAK for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®
With your version 2026 for Windows Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons for FREE! Or upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2026 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 27 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 25 new RealTracks and 23 new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 12 new RealStyles.
- MIDI Styles Set 92: Look Ma! More MIDI 15: Latin Jazz
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 46: Piano & Organ
- Instrumental Studies Set 24: Groovin' Blues Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 19: Songs with Vocals 9
- Playable RealTracks Set 5
- RealDrums Stems Set 9: Cool Brushes
- SynthMaster Sounds Set 1 (with audio demos)
- Android Band-in-a-Box® App (included)
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2026 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyle.
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- MIDI Styles Set 93: Look Ma! More MIDI 16: SynthMaster
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 47: More SynthMaster
- Instrumental Studies 25 - Soul Jazz Guitar Soloing
- Artist Performance Set 20: Songs with Vocals 10
- RealDrums Stems Set 10: Groovin' Sticks
- SynthMaster Sounds & Styles Set 2 (sounds & styles with audio demos)
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2026 for Windows®!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forums57
Topics85,788
Posts796,147
Members39,958
| |
Most Online25,754
Jan 24th, 2025
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There are no members with birthdays on this day. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dansk
Deutsch - Windows
Español
Français - Windows
Italiano - Windows
Nederlands
Polski
Português
Svenskt
русский
Japanese
Simplified Chinese
Traditional Chinese
Korean