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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151 |
And in answer to Peter's question, yes, I do transcribe licks that I find interesting. I write them out. Then I figure out where they're coming from, that's the important part.
I mainly listen to and transcribe licks that negotiate certain progressions. V7-I's and III-VI7's in particular. When I learn how a certain player is negotiating those changes it gives me ideas and makes my vocabulary a little more fluent.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,831
PG Music Staff
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OP
PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 15,831 |
Aloha,
Yes, that's what I do. I categorize them based on the relative note of the scale that they start off with. I write them out, and file them away like that. So that all II-V-I that begin on the minor 3rd of the II chord are in the same place. Then, when you are soloing, and find yourself approaching a Fm7 chord (ie a Fm7 Bb7 EbMaj7 coming up), and you are around the Ab note (the minor 3rd of the Fm7 chord), it is easy to recall a bunch of phrases that begin on the minor 3rd, and you can compare them while you practice them.
Of course you don't end up playing the whole phrase, might just use part of it, but at least you don't completely forget phrases that you spent the time to transcribe and learn, just because you never see them again.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 604
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 604 |
Playing licks on a sax (or any horn actually) is a lot different than doing it on a guitar. We don't have the advantage of positional changes making the same lick "transportable" across keys. Some theorize since Coltrane studied with Sandole (a guitarist) he didn't realize what was easy on a guitar was horrendously challenging on a tenor and did it anyway.
So, I guess I am a proponent of learning licks on a "per key" basis. Some might transpose to 2-3 other keys easily, but many will just "lay" right in 1-2 keys.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,151 |
Playing licks on a sax (or any horn actually) is a lot different than doing it on a guitar. We don't have the advantage of positional changes making the same lick "transportable" across keys. Interesting but........wrong. Playing in different keys on a guitar isn't just a matter of moving a few frets up or down. It isn't practical to do that, especially in jazz. Guitar players need to be able to play in all positions. If we're transposng from Db to F we're not just "moving everything up" 4 frets. Check Martino out. He plays licks in every key within a span of 4 -5 frets. The guitar is a strange beast in that anyone can pick up a guitar, learn three open chords and call himself a guitar player. But it goes much deeper than that. Just my opinion, but I've been around for a while.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303
Journeyman
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Journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 303 |
it's really pretty simple, just memorize the riff. A riff is just a motive, if one can't memorize that, he should work on ear training.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,057
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 27,057 |
BIAB 2025 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 7 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6, Song Master Pro, Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus 192 & Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,129
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,129 |
I'm very much enjoying and learning from this topic. Being a person that can't solo well over chord progressions (I'm working on it with BB/RB right now), I'd love to hear and see (e.g. youtube) some of our more experienced players 'jamming' with BB/RB in real time, maybe trading 4's with the soloist...and possibly adding a voiceover to discuss what's going on 'under the hood' so to speak. Also, for a guitar player as myself, seeing the hands of another guitar player is really helpful for me to recognize scales and chords - real hands even more than a fretboard with notes lighting up  but I'm in the process of getting more used to the latter. If anyone knows of some learning links in this sort of format, please share the links. Thanks for the great discussion.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,610
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,610 |
I know (just an example) the lead solo for 'Hotel California' by heart and I get through about half of it without a problem. They say the more you practice having arthritis, the easier it gets and the looser you get with you hands/fingers. That's not true for me on that particular solo. BUT, I never give up. On the bright side: I really don't gig anymore, so I don't have to do covers. I only do originals and when I slip a note or two here and there, I can claim "that was the idea". 
Cheers, Mike My Music * Asus ROG Strix G15CF 32 GB DDR4 4TB HDD + 1 TB SSD NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 8GB Win 11 AKAI EIE PRO Sound Interface. BIAB/RB 2024 UltraPak Build - Latest
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,179
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 22,179 |
I'm not trying to argue with Lee, but I see what you mean PhyillyJazz.
There is a lot more correlation on guitar than most horns. If the voicing doesn't work on guitar you may need to change a few fingerings, but with horns every key causes a whole new set of fingerings for almost every note.
That's what I meant by learning things differently. Learn by the intervals, and even more so if you play a horn. Once I have an instrument I play in my hands, I'm a lot better at 'going up a third from where I am now' than I am at thinking 'I know this song in G concert, and I'm on a trumpet so I need to transpose to A and then add another 5th for the key we're playing in now .. because we're doing this in D so I need to be in E .. and I started in G so .. umm'
If you are talking improvisation, that is much different than the topic started out. The topic started with learning melodies (I think). Then I started seeing posts about pasting different licks together. That's the next step after learning the licks in my mind.
However, I personally think if you learn to think in intervals for melodies, when you do want to recall a certain lick this method helps a lot; you may be improvising in key of 'X' and you originally learned it in 'Y'.
Confused yet?
/I can have that effect on people
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 897
Expert
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Expert
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 897 |
YEAH...I REMEBER THAT CHICAGO BEE HIVE GIG...OR WAS IT A "A SCHOOL OF SORTS IN FRETFULLY UNIQUE ALL-POSITIONS-TOGETHER"
PLAYING...WITH A FRIGHTFULLY APPARENT KNOWLEDGE BY "JOHNNY"!
THAT WAS THE EVENING MANY STAFF CHICAGO GUITARIST, WALKED OUT INTO THE CHILLY EARLY MORNING AIR..JUST SHAKIN' THEIR COLLECTIVE HEADS.
I WALKED OUT WITH JOHNNY BETWEEN HIS WIFE AND I...
CALL IT "THE LOST TRIO...OR LOST TRIAD....
AND JOHNNY FOUND THEM ALL....BY PRACTICE AND DETERMINATION,
WITH A LITTLE TRUMPET-PLAYING EXPERIENCE TUCKED AWAY IN ANOTHER COMPARTMENT OF HIS RIGHT-SIDED BRAIN...
ASK STAN GETZ WHO LOVED PLAYING WITH JOHNNY AND HIS FRETLESS JAZZ GUITAR...AT LEAST WHEN STAN GLANCED OVER AT HIM WHILE THEY WERE BOTH "EXPLORING THE GALAZIES OF IMPROV"...HE DIDN'T THINK THE AX HAD ANY FRETS OR "POSITION MARKERS"!
SORRY PETER...AS A GUITARIST WHO STARTED WITH A GIBSON 125, LIKE WE DID...JUST PRACTICE AND PLAY TRUMPET TOO!! "CHROMATICALLY JIVING" AS THEY SAY... "
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Plus, BIAB 2015 and Sonar Platinum 2015 Upgrade from Cakewalk's Sonar X-3
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 174
Apprentice
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Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 174 |
it's really pretty simple, just memorize the riff. A riff is just a motive, if one can't memorize that, he should work on ear training. I agree with ear training. Still a 'riff' for some of us is a challenge, despite having well trained ears. It is never just a succession of notes. It is also a specific feel, emphasis etc. That is where I have challenges copying another. In fact I can play competently, but cannot copy others well in the least. I just don't have anybody's else's natural phrasing. I have done this with success a few times, but it never sticks in muscle memory. I have my own natural phrasing that is so embedded that any riff I learn becomes a variation of the original. I know some players who can 'note for note' other players. It can be impressive and I can deeply respect the talent and yet it doesn't actually excite me. Cheers!
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