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I plan on doing a couple street performances near Christmas time and making use of some of the karaoke/instrumental songs I have purchased and also some songs I have done with BIAB. My question is this, will I get a LOT better sound if I mix the songs I have done with BIAB with RealBand? I have noticed a small drop in volume with the BIAB songs I have converted to MP3 (compared to the professional karaoke/instrumental tracks) but it's not too big a deal for me. But, then again, I haven't actually tried the BIAB songs through my Roland Street Cube yet nor heard them in a practice room where I can crank up the volume. Just want to know what I might have to look forward to. Okay, the thing is that I just felt like asking and getting the opinions/views of others about this BEFORE actually doing the comparing, which I'll be doing in a few weeks time. I know that IF the BIAB songs are THAT BAD (or volume sounds too low) from the amp then I will HAVE TO mix them. But, well, do you think they will be okay the way they come out with BIAB? Frankly, I really don't WANT to have to do the mixing thing with RealBand as I'm actually pleased with how they are now but might NOT be when they are played through the amp and not just the computer speakers. Oh, I really don't care about getting a professional "CD quality" sound. Is BIAB tracks good sounding enough? Cheers P.S. I really hope this doesn't sound like a silly question. 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think you have to go ahead and try them on your Roland Street Cube and see how you like that.
Having said that, you will have a better chance at getting better balanced tracks if you mix them in a DAW (eq, compression, ...). So yes, I would mix one song in RealBand and compare it with the direct output from BIAB (on the street cube) and see if you can tell any difference.
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I don't think your overall sound quality is a case of either/or.
Matter of fact, I KNOW from empirical use that I am able to get IDENTICAL sound quality from Band in a Box or Realband using the same songfile.
That applies to use as Live backing tracks or as use of the programs to create recorded performances.
Problems such as Gain, Gain Staging, etc. that are different in sound between the two programs are problems of Settings, getting those set correctly for your computer and environment, also understanding and use of the various controls and settings in the softwares.
Also, in Live Performance situations, he method of amplification, hookup to amp/speakers, plus Settings internal to the Computer to include Sound Device settings, such as output, physical connects done properly, etc. are necessary in order to provide that quality sound output.
But the programs themselves are quite capable of sounding great.
Consider that the PGMusic recorded sample songs of styles are NOT "super-tweaked by pros" or anything of the sort of subterfuge they are sometimes erroneously accused of employing in order to sound that good. They are using the exact same softwares to create the Demo Song recordings.
Try this:
Pick a PGMusic-created Demo file from any style you like to hear from the Stylepicker.
I'm not talking the PGMusic online already recorded Demo Songs here, but instead use the command in BB to "Load Demo Song" directly into Band in a Box.
Play the Demo Song without changing ANYTHING about it.
Now go ahead and use the Render to Audio selection in the Audio menu, create a .wav file of the song.
If the resulting .wav file does not sound identical to what you heard during playback of the songfile directly from the program, it is a sign that there is something, some setting or possibly more than one setting, that is not right in your personal pc configuration regarding sound.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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If you are using the exact same file in RB, and not changing anything other than volume, there is no reason.
If you want to add other tracks, etc., it would be beneficial.
BB can make street-ready files quickly.
If, however you find the files do not sound good through the Cube once rendered from BiaB, you may be able to quickly touch up the mixed down file in Realband using EQ or whatever is needed .. without having to 'remix' them from scratch.
In other words, if the Cube sounds too bassy, simply working the EQ on the final wave file may be all you need.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have noticed a small drop in volume with the BIAB songs I have converted to MP3 (compared to the professional karaoke/instrumental tracks) but it's not too big a deal for me. It has now become the norm to add a lot of compression through the various stages of recording and this is undoubtable the reason your pro recorded karaoke tracks are louder. This is a really interesting topic for me. Google "Loudness Wars" and do a youtube search on "Loudness Wars". Over time the professional recordings have become more and more compressed (using compression and limiters). I believe the primary reason is to have your song play louder than the other songs on the radio (or now just to compete wiht the loudness of other songs because it seems everyone is compressing songs to the max). This is what is also done with ads on TV, those adds where the volume will jump up when the ad starts. It can be hard on the ears and annoying. All this compression is to the music's detriment in my opinion. For example, the crispness and the pop of a loud snare drum is lost with all this compression. If the listener wants more volume all they have to do is turn up the volume, we don't need compression for loudness. This compression for loudness is different than the judicous use of compression that can create various benfits including hearing all the parts more clearly in a multitrack recording. It's a good thing that the BIAB tracks aren't highly compressed in that this leaves it to us users to determine how much compression we want to apply when we move it to a DAW. In your case, you might need some more volume out of your tunes if your street cube isn't playing them loud enough. Experiment with a compressor and/or limiter in the final mix down if you need to eek out some additional volume.
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Depending on the style in BB.. some will use real tracks and some will be predominately midi based. Taking ANY of the BB files and opening it in Real Band and allowing it to render to real tracks is generally always a major improvement for me. Some will still want to render as midi tracks in RB, BUT, you can always mute them and then select a real track from the list and use that.... As far as final volume levels..... are you exporting it to a third party AUDIO EDITOR such as WAVEPAD ? http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/index.htmlIf not, you really should add that step to the process. In the editor you can trim the start and end, convert to MP3 from WAVE.... and you should ALWAYS export in WAVE.....plus, you can run a NORMALIZE function on the wave before you convert it to MP3. Normalizing will generally add a few db increase of volume to a file.... I use it on all my tunes as the final step before converting or saving the wave. For live performance always try to use WAVE files not MP3 except as a last resort when you can not get the wave.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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+1 - Yes, normalize is the first thing you should do to increase volume.
I normalize all my tracks before mixing. This makes it easier to apply some of the other effects (especially compression) as you start with similar settings that you had before. I normalize to -3db, just a personal preference.
Last edited by Frankp; 10/27/13 08:28 AM.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Any DAW will do the exact same job as RB - use the one you are comfortable with. FWIW when I bring a BIAB song over into Sonar, the sound is exactly the same as in BIAB, no difference. Although be prepared when isolating tracks in a DAW, some are rather "dirty", in that there are many recording artefacts, extraneous noises and bumps etc And soem (quite a few) have inordinate amounts of hiss.
Most of these can get hidden in the total song, but when isolated, as I said, become quite noticeable. YMMV
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I have noticed a small drop in volume with the BIAB songs I have converted to MP3 (compared to the professional karaoke/instrumental tracks) but it's not too big a deal for me. If the listener wants more volume all they have to do is turn up the volume, we don't need compression for loudness. In your case, you might need some more volume out of your tunes if your street cube isn't playing them loud enough. Experiment with a compressor and/or limiter in the final mix down if you need to eek out some additional volume. Thanks! I had already thought of putting all my rendered/mp3 BIAB songs onto a separate CD,, apart from the pro karaoke/instrumental tracks. That way, when I decide to play a BIAB song, I will know to change the volume on the playback device which will be either a CD player or my Zune (or BOTH!) The thing is that, for playback, (not the instruments/mic) the sound level is adjusted by the device itself and NOT the amp and, from trying it out already, it is VERY loud. So now I'm thinking to leave well enough alone and be happy with what I got from BIAB*. Cheers, Bob *Subject to change when I actually start practicing my setlist.  P.S. Thanks for the input everyone!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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As far as final volume levels..... are you exporting it to a third party AUDIO EDITOR such as WAVEPAD ? http://www.nch.com.au/wavepad/index.htmlIf not, you really should add that step to the process. In the editor you can trim the start and end, convert to MP3 from WAVE.... and you should ALWAYS export in WAVE.....plus, you can run a NORMALIZE function on the wave before you convert it to MP3. Normalizing will generally add a few db increase of volume to a file.... I use it on all my tunes as the final step before converting or saving the wave. For live performance always try to use WAVE files not MP3 except as a last resort when you can not get the wave. No. I was simply exporting the finished songs from BIAB as an mp3 to my desktop and from there moving it to where I wanted it. Ultimately I will be burning the songs to CD and also synching them to my Zune. But I still don't know yet if I want to go the CD route or Zune route for playback but, I'm old, and I think I'll feel safer having a disk. But BOTH is good in case something happens to one of the devices. Anyhow, I have downloaded that program and will get into it at a not too distant later date. However, I've decided, for now, I'm gonna leave well enough alone with the BIAB songs and just get my final setlist together for the Christmas time playing. Oh, I could do the WAV thing but I'm fairly sure my playback devices can't read WAV files. But this is a start. Although I used to play in bands this will be the first time I have done something like this. Okay, I've done karaoke but nothing like having pro tracks backing me up while I play and sing to them. Improving on the quality of the BIAB stuff can be a think down the road. Right now I'd better concentrate on my playing and singing. cheers
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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If you use a lap top as the music player, it will handle waves or MP3.
If you have a choice, use waves since they do sound better.
The wavepad editor will run in demo mode after the trial expires.... the pop up window comes up after the the trial and offers you the option to keep the demo mode running....select YES and you can still trim, convert files and normalize.....all the things you need.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I have found that using mp3 format works much better in performances live, likely due to the smaller filesize and less taxing of computer resources.
In Live Performance, amplification through PA or other live system, coupled with the background noise of the venue, the mp3 format sounds great.
Just be sure to make your mp3 files at 128kbps or greater, but don't get too carried away on that front either. In my setup, 128kbps files sound great, I go no higher than 192kbs for mp3 playback.
--Mac
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I have found that using mp3 format works much better in performances live, likely due to the smaller filesize and less taxing of computer resources.
In Live Performance, amplification through PA or other live system, coupled with the background noise of the venue, the mp3 format sounds great.
Just be sure to make your mp3 files at 128kbps or greater, but don't get too carried away on that front either. In my setup, 128kbps files sound great, I go no higher than 192kbs for mp3 playback.
--Mac Mac, are you serious? Mp3 works better than waves? I found just the opposite to be true. Using MP3 from my Sansa Fuse into a PA the sound quality was horrible. Not killing me horrible but a "what the?" kind of horrible.... If the lappy can play a wave, and it should be able to do that flawlessly without any hiccups, the wave will sound the best. When you start with a 30Mb wave and convert it to MP3 and the final MP3 is 3.5 Mb..... there's a certainty that lots of data has been dropped to get it down to about 1/10th it's original size. I'm amazed that the mp3 actually sounds as good as it does. I always render my MP3's to 320kbs unless they are over 10MB and that's only a consideration on Sound click (limit 10Mb) and reverbnation (limit 8Mb) ... other than that my MP3 player has 320kbs files on it always..... higher is always better. Soundclick for example (on the free site most folks use) will reduce all files to 128kbs but never, never, upload a 128kbs file because you know it will be reduced to that anyway. I did that early on, and one song had a piano part that sounded flanged when I knew it wasn't.... it was their algorithm that converted the file....I reloaded the file with a 320kbs and the issue cleared up even after they mutilated it down to 128kbs.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I never said it sounded better than wave files, but I do contend that the smaller filesize of the mp3 files taxes the playback device, such as a laptop, a lot less and that the slight differences between the full .wav format and a compressed .mp3 file that uses the correct codec, are indeed minimal and not to be noticed during live performance.
The .wma format works just as good as the mp3 format for this purpose with BiaB, BTW.
--Mac
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Depending on the song, sometimes WMA works better than an mp3 (even at a higher bitrate) here also .. just sayin
Convertor choices can make a huge difference on some songs.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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.....but I do contend that the smaller filesize of the mp3 files taxes the playback device, such as a laptop, a lot less and that the slight differences between the full .wav format and a compressed .mp3 file that uses the correct codec, are indeed minimal and not to be noticed during live performance.
The .wma format works just as good as the mp3 format for this purpose with BiaB, BTW.
--Mac Nope, it makes no difference to any device (player or PC) if the device is playing back a wav or an MP3, the ONLY difference is quality of sound and size. WMA - MP3 - AAC = no difference, only personal preference and hype!
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Nope, it makes no difference to any device (player or PC) if the device is playing back a wav or an MP3, the ONLY difference is quality of sound and size.
WMA - MP3 - AAC = no difference, only personal preference and hype!
FILESIZE is where the performance difference can be problematic. Consider those using a laptop in live performance. Consider the hard disk here. There are also other considerations. Most certainly a .wav file is a better audio than a compressed file. This is mostly due to truncation of the frequency range anymore, if the better codecs are used for conversion. BUT - That pesky Law of Diminishing Returns weighs in as well and at that point one has to exercise a bit of common sense within the given situation. *Live Performance -- What does the typical Live Performance situation actually entail? Are you always guaranteed an acoustically treated situation in most live venues or are you at the mercy of whatever is actually and really there? Are the shapes of the different venues even taken into account as to their acoustic properties? Not the typical live venue where someone would likely be using backing tracks or BiaB, we're talking the typical bar or restaurant venue here, where anything goes really. Am thinking of a place I used to play in on a regular basis that is L shaped and the "stage" if you could call it that, was located at the short end of the L. What is the PA system itself? A couple of boxes mounted on stands with a woofer and a horn? That is not quite the same situation as the proper audiophile or studio environment using Nearfields, Sound Treatment, etc. Then there is the background noise level of the live venue to consider, as well. My realworld experiments using .wav, .mp3 and .wma files in live entertainment has shown to me that the difference between the full PCM audio of the .wav file and those other two compressed mediums goes unheard and unnoticed, even by the entertainer. And the Double Blindfold has indeed been used to proof that. But anyone who wishes to run full ,.wav files in live performance venues such as mentioned above can certainly go ahead and do so if that's what floats their boat. --Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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No, file size makes no difference. Again I must say this. The playback device just plays what it is loaded with. It does not "groan" or struggle, or stutter under the weight of a larger file.
The ONLY difference size makes is in regard to the amount of storage one has available, period!
I agree that a quality MP3 (and certainly well above 128) through a live P.A. is fine, I use them myself, but only for storage space restrictions.
In my case I use VBR at the highest quality level (= files of approx 6-8mb in size) and through a PA these are pretty much indistinguishable from WAV.
But the MP3 must be 256kbps or better, anyone who cannot tell the difference between a 128kbps MP3 and one of 256+ needs to have their hearing checked. The difference IS very noticeable.
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The ONLY difference size makes is in regard to the amount of storage one has available, period!
Which is my only point. (I never mentioned "groaning" and other rather emotional but nontechnical terms.) A lot of users are likely faced with the use of laptops for live gigs, many of which come with hard disk sizes that are not more than 256gb, often a lot less than that. There is also the problem of hard disk feagmentation, which can indeed rezult in dropouts of audio, as well as the extreme case of a fragmented file just flat refusing to load or stopping playback midstream. I'd rather err on the side of caution here, the side that keeps the show going. --Mac
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I would think that another thing to factor in on whether to use MP3s or wavs would be your audience. If you are playing for a group of audiophiles then use the wavs and the best equipment you have. But if playing for John Q. Public in a live situation like a bar I would bet that most all of your audience couldn’t tell the difference between the two formats.
I got banned from Weight Watchers for dropping a bag of M&Ms on the floor.
It was the best game of Hungry Hippos I've ever seen!
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Windows!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: VST3 Plugin Support
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac® now includes support for VST3 plugins, alongside VST and AU. Use them with MIDI or audio tracks for even more creative possibilities in your music production.
Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Macs®: VST3 Plugin Support
Video: Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®: Using VST3 Plugins
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