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Anyone interested in further developing lyric writing skills? If so ... - Just over 12 months ago, I set up a web site for some local songwriting friends so that we could work through Andrea Stolpe's great little textbook called ...
- Popular Lyric Writing: 10 Steps to Effective Storytelling
- I'm looking to revisit Andrea's book if anyone would like to join me. It will take around 4 - 6 weeks. If you're interested, send me a private message with a contact email address.
BackgroundAndrea is one of Pat Pattison's very successful students and a lecturer at Berklee College. She took Pat's ideas on Object Writing and developed them to become a productive technique for writing lyrics. She also invented a process that she calls 'toggling' as a means of assembling song lines so that their developmental impact is maximized. For anyone who's done Pat's course on coursera.org, Andrea's work is a real eyeopener. When I am struggling as to where to go with lyrics, I always apply her techniques and ideas fall into place. Using Andrea's approach, 'writer's block' became a thing of the past. The dozen of us who methodically worked our way through Andrea's book found it a great benefit. It turned out that self-paced, peer-group study worked incredibly effectively. Andrea was very supportive of the website and gave her blessing. I'm pretty sure most people will find her approach very new, very insightful and extremely productive. Interested?The book can be found on Amazon as well as The Book Depository. I prefer the latter because of its delivery policy; it's fast and free  link to book at The Book Depository (free delivery worldwide) In case anyone is concerned ... The free web site I created is highly protected from the public and from search engines. It's as private as I know how to make it and only people I manually authorize can enter. I did this to protect everyone's work.
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Hi Noel, Would love to participate, however, warming, warning - total newbie to writing lyrics! I guess the upside might be strengthened eye muscles from all the rolling and crossing  I'm interested because of a technique I learned watching Oliver Gannon's wonderful video Band-in-a-Box tutorials...he demonstrated how to take a phrase, and using the cadence of the phrase, develop a melodic motif. Happy Holidays, Mike
Cheers, Mike.
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Motley... you should be getting a few books on writing to help get you into writing better stuff. The more you seek out the best writers and their advice, the better writer you will become.
The goal is to try to write with others better than you... "writing up" as it's called.
Books, collaborations, seminars, courses, they are all useful. But most importantly, write, write, write.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Guitarhacker, totally great advice...
I'm at "Kickoff" phase - kicking off learning about lyrics through the book with Noel while, at the same time, learning Band-in-a-Box Pop styles and creating songs driven by the lyrics. Also, look to take Pat Pattison's class.
Sounds like you write / written lyrics?
Any thoughts on books re lyrics? In your mind, how does genre impact how to think about lyrics, if at all?
Last edited by MotleyFool; 12/24/13 03:52 PM.
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
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Hi Mike, Would love to participate, however, warning, warning - total newbie to writing lyrics! Andrea Stolpe's approach is perfect for the person who knows absolutely nothing about lyrics. It develops some excellent lyric-writing principles that will stand you in great stead. With the forums I've created, I've set them up so that we will all be working through Andrea's book. The stuff is self-paced. My experience is that working with others really helps to boost creativity enormously. If you're interested, below are links to a couple of pdfs I've created that help give a bit more of an insight. (Right-click on the link and then 'Save as' to download the files.) PDF #1: An example of the work for Day 1. PDF #2: Reference guide for Stolpe's Principles (page 1) and Rhyme types (page 2). I think you'll enjoy the 6 weeks! All the best, Noel P.S. The pdf files might not seem to be too meaningful right at this moment. Once we get going with Andrea's book, though, they'll make sense
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Guitarhacker, totally great advice...
Sounds like you write / written lyrics?
Any thoughts on books re lyrics? In your mind, how does genre impact how to think about lyrics, if at all? Motley, yes I do write.... been working on that since I was a kid... really just started to get serious about being a better writer in the last 15 years or so. It's a learned skill for most people. The more you write, and study writing, the better you will get. Books: I don't have very many. Certainly not like some folks do. I like Jason Blume's books (6 steps) and just picked up Pat Pattison's Writing better lyrics, I also have Robin Frederick's Shortcuts which is not exactly totally about lyric writing. Joining a group of other songwriters such as TAXI or Nashville Songwriters Assn.... or a local writers group is a great way to get lots of good information. If you are near a big city there's almost a 100% chance there is a writers group there. Genre probably does affect lyric writing in a huge way. As a country writer, I would really really struggle to write the lyrics to hip hop or rap, for example, and vice versa. Click on my web site link and navigate to My Music and have a listen to some of the things I write. I have really started working with co-writers in the past 6 to 8 years and that has made a huge difference in my writing, both as a collaborator and as a solo writer.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hi Mike,
Andrea Stolpe's approach is perfect for the person who knows absolutely nothing about lyrics. It develops some excellent lyric-writing principles that will stand you in great stead.
With the forums I've created, I've set them up so that we will all be working through Andrea's book. The stuff is self-paced. My experience is that working with others really helps to boost creativity enormously. Neil, sounds like a great way to kickoff; thanks so much for opening up an opportunity to explore writing lyrics. Look forward to participating in January! Thanks again, Mike
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
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Appreciate the comeback, GH,... I like Jason Blume's books (6 steps) and just picked up Pat Pattison's Writing better lyrics... Thanks! Those two books are on a couple of "Top 10" songwriting book lists. After a bit a research, here are the 5 books I'm getting... - Popular Lyric Writing: Effective Storytelling by Andrea Stolpe - Writing-Better-Lyrics by Pat Pattison - 6 Steps To Songwriting Success: Comprehensive Guide To Writing And Marketing Hit Songs by Jason Blume - Tunesmith: Inside the Art of Songwriting by Jimmy Webb - Melody in Songwriting: Tools and Techniques for Writing Hit Songs (Berklee Guide) by Jack Perricone Joining ... a local writers group is a great way to get lots of good information. If you are near a big city there's almost a 100% chance there is a writers group there. Found a very active group in Seattle - Songwriters in Seattle - will check it out as soon as I've got a feel of where I want to go... Genre probably does affect lyric writing in a huge way. As a country writer, I would really really struggle to write the lyrics to hip hop or rap, for example, and vice versa. Feels right; I'm starting out by studying and building a few BB styles and songs based on tunes by J.J. Cale; then artists like Mark Knopfler, Bonnie Raitt, John Mayer, Ry Cooder, John Mellencamp... Click on my web site link and navigate to My Music and have a listen to some of the things I write. Will do - thanks for your time, Guitarhacker - raising a single malt to your healthy and productive New Year...
Cheers, Mike.
BiaB 2026 UltraPak, Cubase Pro 15, Ableton Live 12, NI Komplete 15 Ultimate.
Yamaha P515, Yamaha Montage M, Yamaha Tyros 5, Komplete Kontrol S49 MKII, Maschine MKII, Electric Guitars/Bass/Violin
Windows 11 Pro, i7, 64GB RAM, 6TB SSD.
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Noel,
I read those pdf's as I was wondering what was involved in your songwriting forum and suddenly it all became clear to me!
In my last 2 years in school, before university, I was in a "use of English language" course where the teacher dissected poems by the great poets, Keats, Shelley etc etc and I "learnt" about iambic, the only one I remember, pentameters etc etc.
I must have paid more attention than I thought. LOL
Alyn
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Hey Alyn, I promise you that it won't be too much like your poetry class Andrea's way of looking at lyric construction is unique. I've never come across anything similar in the couple of dozen books I have on songwriting. Those E and I on one of the pdfs refers to Andrea's invention of categorising phrases into External and Internal. External stuff is that which happens outside the character; it can be seen as if it was on a stage. It is tangible. For example: running along the beach, waves splashing against polished black rocks, a seagull crying high in the sky. These are all external things and they are "scene setters". Internal phrases, on the other hand, add meaning to the external details. Things like: my head throbbed from running so hard, I ached with feelings of loss, a picture of dad swam in my mind - these are internal. Now ... the key is to arrange these in a show and tell progression. "E" shows and "I" tells. Let's try .... E E E I (as a possible idea for a four line section) Waves splashing against the rocks
A lonely seagull crying high in the sky
I ran across the sand
My head was throbbing from running so hard
Now that's kind of interesting to me. It immediately makes me wonder what it will sound like it I throw in some rhyme. I'm going to trying rhyming the second line with the last line. The word "die" just popped into my head as a rhyme for "sky". This might give me something like ...
Waves splashing against the rocks
A lonely seagull crying high in the sky
I ran across the sand
My head was throbbing, I wanted to die
Hmmm... now ideas are starting to come along thick and fast. I'm pretty sure that I could make this into a broken heart kind of song!
Why not come along an be a part of the group. At worst, you'll gain nothing! At best ... well it might give you an extra idea or two. All the best, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Noel, Thanks for the offer but I politely say no thanks. I have enough trouble with the 4 A4 boxes each almost full of lyrics. Some unfinished and some ready to record as songs. Most are little vignettes of my life and so the lyrics/words and tunes will stay unique, personal to me  as my posts recently have shown. I write my songs to escape from life but my life is in the songs. One lingering memory of the class was I forgot to find a favourite poem to recite so I instead said a poem my Dad told me when I was very young. It cost me a week of detentions!! Teddy Bear sat on a chair, with ham and jam and plum and pear, this is queer, said Teddy Bear the more I eat the less is there. The laughter was as intense as my blushes  Keep up the good work Alyn
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Hi Alyn,
A week of detentions!? Some teachers just don't have a sense of humour.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Noel, Well I was in a Private school then called a Public School in England, in the late 1960's,where there was an odd rivalry between Arts and Science. I was classed as science reading Chem, Physics and Biology. Anyway Alyn
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Dear all,
Thank you to those who expressed an interest in being part of this peer workgroup. Hopefully you should have received an email by now.
I just wanted to let you know that we're up and running and rearing to go! I'm looking forward to working beside you.
Best regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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