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The image below is one I am currently running on my FB page. I picked it up from another music related site but added the graphic "Unless it is a Charity Event Don't Play For Nothing!"  I see and hear of many musicians falling into the trap (well I think it is a trap) set by club owners/,managers who (again in my opinion) are playing on every musician's "need to perform" gene. The offer goes something like this, "you come in and build up a crowd and then we will talk money". Just wondering on how a cross section of my fellow musicians here on PG Music Forums feel about this. Now my gut tells me us seasoned cats, yes I mean older, will say hell no man . . . let me and my family try your food for a week and if we like it, then we can talk money. Opinions welcomed and feel free to elaborate. Thanks and later ladies and germs,
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Yeah had that phase Danny, though thankfully not too often. I don't mind doing freebies as long as I know in advance. Charitable work actually helped to build up my gigs so its a good way to start at least
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When we were playing out the only free gigs were at the VA hospitals. Some of those charities that want you to play for free have mega bucks!
We would never play in a club for free! We did have more gigs than we could play but even without those we wouldn’t play for free.
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It is the same in every business! I remember how much free work we did when we first started our business. And almost without exception those free jobs NEVER resulted in money. Whatever they pay is how much they value your work and once you agree its value is nothing...well, there you are!
I even disagree somewhat with the disclaimer above about charity events! The charity employees who run the events typically get paid a salary. And they know that running a successful event always costs money (even though it would be nice it everything were donated usually that ain't the case!) You should at least get all your costs covered and you should get plenty of free promotion.
Bottom line...don't work for free unless it is just about having fun, helping out, etc.
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The line that gets me is, "We don't have any budget for music."
Well, no. It means they didn't allocate anything for music when THEY made the budget. They made that choice. You then must make yours, but help them to see their error, regardless.
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we identify ourselves by our choices.
Desperate is as desperate does. If you want to be seen as desperate, then do what a desperate person does... play for free.
Having said that, I've heard more than one good band say that when they were touring, they made more money busking than they made at the clubs on their itinerary. This could be a statement about who values the musicians more... the club owners.. or the average joe on the street
But ultimately it *IS* about perceived value. You can't sell anything for more than the other person thinks its worth.
added thought: the function of advertising is to inflate the perceived value of a product and make it desirable.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 05/17/14 01:54 PM. Reason: added a thought
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Good points guys, especially beware of some charities, been there with a local charity for years, one rare one that gave 100% of everything collected to the cause. No salaries, no expenses, if you volunteered for this charity all you got was thanks and hugs.
Those are very rare indeed. But in today's world I also realize that some major charities who do great things also pay a CEO and other expenses. Can't throw all of them out with the wash water as many the likes of the Red Cross, Wounded Warriors and St, Jude. Not trying to push any charity on anyone, just an observation, please take it as such.
Later,
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Danny, those aren't 'musicians'. There is another word for them, but since this is a family-friendly site, I won't use the term.  I don't think that pros are really that concerned with bottom-feeders, whether they are club managers or “musicians”. Decent venues rarely conduct their businesses like that. They know there is a difference between a bottom-feeding wanabee and someone who plays for a living. What is of greater concern to me is the general state of the business. This Play For Free phenomenon is only the tip of the iceberg. Smoking bans, DUI prosecutions and the internet have killed the club/live music business. There just aren't that many jobs anymore, and the pay is largely the same as it was 30 years ago. I don't have to tell you that. Adjusted for inflation, we're making less now than we made in the 70's. This has created a real dog-eat-dog atmosphere out there. We actually had another band jump our booking last week. Cost us $300. Sure, we got more bookings from the club, but we can't recover that 300 – it's a loss, and we had wasted a booking date. For those who assume that music is “just like any other business”, I would strongly disagree. In what other business are you fired the minute you get hired, uncertain of payment, frequently robbed and have to deal with unscrupulous club owners and other musicians? Play for free? Sure, at a VA hospital or for the charities you mentioned. For a club? Not bloody likely.
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Been there, done that..... not once, but many times. Having said that, you really got to admit that many of the places that are asking this of you are not going to pay you much even when they do agree to "talk money"...and on the flip side, many of the bands and artists that will play there for free are worth exactly what they are being paid....... in other words... nothing.
I looked at those free and cheap gigs this way: The band was new, and we needed to try our stuff in front of an audience to see what tended to work and what didn't. Those hole in the wall places were like the McDonald and Burger King fast food minimum wage jobs. They got you in the door and sometimes you could even make some money. At least covering gas. Heck, I've played a few "paying gigs" where the band leader handed me $5 at the end of the night. That didn't cover gas.
The goal, just like the burger flipper job was not to make it a career but simply as a starting point to the higher paid gigs in a few months.
I do recall doing a few "auditions" in some of the clubs. But that was a bit different. These were the clubs that had the biggest and best local bands, paid good money, drew good crowds, and hired no band unheard. You auditioned for free or you didn't play there and they didn't go to hear you in the next town.
On one of those gigs, the deal was play one set. I hire you if I like you, and if I don't hire you, don't call me for at least a year. DEAL! So we showed up and played. He was charging a buck a head for guys, ladies free on a Wed evening. At the end of the set he says, hey, if you play a second set, I'll give you the door receipts. We discussed it and played the second set. We covered the gas and beer and landed several really nice paying middle of the week gigs. He never booked a new band on the weekend until they had a local following. This was a large beach town main street club, and it was "the place" to play on weekends.
If the goal is to use those gigs on a temporary basis, as a stepping stone, then sure....play them if you want. Just don't make a career out of playing free or cheap.
There was a time, at least locally in NC when a good band could make good money. Those days are gone. I lived in a town with a large military base and that town and base supported numerous bands, several of us were full time and the rest were weekend guys. Once the NC DUI laws changed, the club scene started to deteriorate. Then came the DJ's and more clubs stopped using live bands. The military base has now stopped using live bands.
I was talking to a buddy from that town recently on FB. The club scene is nearly dead. The base isn't booking and the civilian clubs use DJ's or jukeboxes.... he said the pay grade for bands is abysmal. You're lucky to make a hundred for the weekend.
I know that locally, here in this town, there used to be several nightclubs that used live bands. now, there are none. The sub shop and there's an expensive boutique restaurant that occasionally books small bands and singles. I'm sure the pay there is tips and a meal.
Live music is in bad shape right now. I certainly would not want to be out there trying to pay my bills from it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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We do a free gig at the nursing home section at the VA hospital every year, and occasional charities that I believe in.
If it is a profit making place (bar, restaurant, etc.) I do not play for free. In addition, I boycott any commercial establishment that hosts an 'open mic' night and IMHO exploits musicians 24/7. They will never-ever get a penny from me.
If the waiters, bartenders, dishwashers, owners, bookkeepers, janitors, managers, are all getting paid, I see no reason to ask for free music. That equals exploitation and is disrespectful to musicians.
This has been around the block a few times, but worthy of a repeat.
The next time you are asked to play for free:
Ad:
We are a small & casual restaurant downtown and we are looking for solo musicians to play in our restaurant to promote their work and sell their CD. This is not a paying job, but only for special events which will eventually turn into a nightly event if we get positive response. More Jazz, Rock, & smooth type music, around the world and mixed cultural music. Are you interested to promote your work? Please reply back ASAP.
A Musician’s Reply:
Happy new year! I am a musician with a modest house looking for a restauranteur to come to my house to promote his/her restaurant by making dinner for me and my friends. This is not a paying job, but only for special events which will eventually turn into a nightly event if we get a positive response. More fine dining & exotic meals and mixed Ethnic Fusion cuisine. Are you interested to promote your restaurant? Please reply back ASAP.
There are a number of 'open mic' bars in our area, it is becoming a sad trend, and unfortunately there are enough musicians who do not respect themselves enough to play them.
A few of them have gone out of business, IMO because the public doesn't want to see a bunch of musicians get on stage, figure out what they know in common and play the same old songs in various shades of mediocrity.
One bar asked local bands to play a weekend for free. They made it seem like a contest: The band that brings the biggest crowd will get a 3 month contract. This went on until they ran out of bands that wanted to play for free, and nobody ever got hired. When he couldn't find any more bands to exploit, he got a line dance teacher to come in and play CDs and teach line dancing for free - until that failed.
Do we ask Plumbers to work for free? Carpenters? Investment Managers? Taxi Drivers? Secretaries? CEOs? Ship Captains? Doctors? Nurses? Policemen? Soldiers? Store Clerks? Technicians? Engineers? Lawyers? Sanitation Workers? News Reporters? Bridge Tenders? Schoolteachers? Social Workers? Bankers? etc. etc. -- then why expect Musicians to work for free?
Just say "No" to free gigs.
Obviously I feel very strongly about this subject.
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Hi Danny
I was considering whether to reply to this thread or not because I do something different and may be opening a huge can of worms.
While I would never dream of playing at a club or restaurant for free I do play at a farmers market on a Saturday morning for which I do not get paid BUT I see it more as “busking”. People give me tips, take my cards and buy my CDs. I have had two corporate gigs from those markets. Those guys Schnapps and Louise on the Jelly last night got to know my music through this market (they are personal friends but didn’t know I played).
I feel I am gaining big time by consistently playing there. They would not have a musician there if they had to pay one. The way I look at it is that I am quite lucky because all the other vendors have to pay for their stands while I just pitch and play for a couple of hours then go home. I sometimes practice the set I am going to do on the Jelly that night. I am not obliged to play every Saturday (not being paid) which leaves to free to go and do my sailing when there are regattas.
To me it is a bit like playing on the Jelly. I do it because it is good for me and I ENJOY IT. If I get tips then that is great but I am not expecting it and won’t give up if the tips don’t flow.
So for me it is a win, I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so.
Btw, the worst is when you are expected to play for free AND bring 10 friends with you. I went to an open mike the other night and the girl said she would love to invite me to the songwriters evening if I could bring 10 friends!!!!
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"So for me it is a win, I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so." Busking is not playing for free. If you're any good, you can make some bread busking. Depends on the site. Mallory Dock at Key West, Harborplace in Baltimore, The Cannery in San Francisco, and others – there are buskers making very good money. There are many buskers who travel the world performing in the street. We've been busking for many years. We even have a battery-powered PA – mics, guitar amp, bass amp, and it sounds great. Blows people's minds to see a duo on the street with live guitar and bass and backing tracks! And, of course, BIAB makes the best backing tracks.
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Somehow, I feel like the oddball in this conversation.
I live in 1 of 18 Nursing Homes owned by the same for-profit corporation. I see nearly nothing being allocated to patient entertainment so I'm attempting an end-run around the corporation out of my love and concern for the patients who have absolutely nothing to say in budgetary matters yet deserve some quality entertainment.
I have no intention to dilute the value of any band or solo entertainer by asking friends to play here for free but, unfortunately, it comes down to free versus none.
I think entertainment money is available but is currently being diverted to beautification, plants, and outdoor detailing. They are currently doing a multimillion dollar remodeling which will provide them an excuse to cry "poverty".
So I'm left with a dilemma; To ask my countless musician friends worldwide to entertain pro bono, or, conversely, to watch the elderly patients with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Chronic Pain, Hospice (end of life) Patients, withdraw further into mental darkness without the stimulation provided by music, the only activity that utilizes 100% of the brain. I choose the former.
Perhaps a deciding factor - there is still room here for your mother!
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Somehow, I feel like the oddball in this conversation.
I live in 1 of 18 Nursing Homes owned by the same for-profit corporation. I see nearly nothing being allocated to patient entertainment so I'm attempting an end-run around the corporation out of my love and concern for the patients who have absolutely nothing to say in budgetary matters yet deserve some quality entertainment.
I have no intention to dilute the value of any band or solo entertainer by asking friends to play here for free but, unfortunately, it comes down to free versus none.
I think entertainment money is available but is currently being diverted to beautification, plants, and outdoor detailing. They are currently doing a multimillion dollar remodeling which will provide them an excuse to cry "poverty".
So I'm left with a dilemma; To ask my countless musician friends worldwide to entertain pro bono, or, conversely, to watch the elderly patients with Alzheimer's, Dementia, Chronic Pain, Hospice (end of life) Patients, withdraw further into mental darkness without the stimulation provided by music, the only activity that utilizes 100% of the brain. I choose the former.
Perhaps a deciding factor - there is still room here for your mother! Don, Maybe you could ask your musical friends to play for you online, ala Street Jelly? If we weren't on the other side of the universe, we'd come and play for sure. Regards, Bob
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Bob, in fact some (Summer Russell and several tentative, including Danny) are coming to visit/meet me and entertain patients.
It's often been said here that there are greater rewards than money. As a theft deterrent, we are not allowed to carry cash so that even knocks out tipping. It is something best motivated by love from the abundance of a willing heart. In which case, there is no amount of money that even approaches an Alzheimer patient's smile.
I would love to meet you in person but money constrains make that highly unlikely.
Nokie Edwards (Ventures fame) was born in Oklahoma and has promised to stop by when he's in the area. Britain's nominated top female vocalist, Hayley Oliver, will visit me on her next visit to the Colonies and sing for the patients. Money is not an issue, while love is uppermost.
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If I can't make money by performing I'm not going to donate my services unless it is for a bonafide fundraiser.
Keith
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I boycott any commercial establishment that hosts an 'open mic' night and IMHO exploits musicians 24/7. They will never-ever get a penny from me. I have been to and played several open mics and my impression is they are there to give newbies a chance to get on stage and get some practice. Usually they are on an off night so the only crowd is the other players waiting their turn to play! Most of these same bars have paid acts on the busier nights. Seems like a win-win to me. No one is coming to the bar on an off night so the bar opens the stage to anyone who wants to get up there. The bar sells a few drinks on an off night and the noobs get some stage time.
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I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper!
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I have been to and played several open mics and my impression is they are there to give newbies a chance to get on stage and get some practice. Usually they are on an off night so the only crowd is the other players waiting their turn to play! Most of these same bars have paid acts on the busier nights. Seems like a win-win to me. No one is coming to the bar on an off night so the bar opens the stage to anyone who wants to get up there. The bar sells a few drinks on an off night and the noobs get some stage time.
Ditto to that. Burbanks in Cincinnati used to have open mic blues on Wed night with a little twist. The band was paid to play, but anyone who wanted to could become the "leader of the band" for a couple of songs. All of the hot young blues players in town would show up with their axes and jam out with a full blown band. Beer, blues and BBQ. What more could you want? The place was always packed on Wed.
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I DO HOPE I am not damaging live music for other musicians by doing so. I wouldn't sweat it at all! Each person should do what is right for them and pay no attention to those who would claim you are harming "real" musicians by working cheap or for free! Funny how someone would make such a claim and then replace real musicians in their own act with BIAB so they can work cheaper! Where are you working Bugsey?
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This collection includes Disco, slap bass ‘70s/‘80s pop, modern and ‘80s metal with Andy Wood, and a unique “Songwriter Potpourri” featuring Chinese folk instruments, piano, banjo, and more. You’ll also find a muted electric guitar style (a RealTracks first!) and “Producer Layered Guitar” styles for slick "produced" sound.
Country, Americana & Praise (Sets 462–467):
We’ve added new RealTracks across bro country, Americana, praise & worship, vintage country, and songwriter piano. Highlights include Brent Mason (electric guitar), Eddie Bayers (drums), Doug Jernigan (pedal steel), John Jarvis (piano), Glen Duncan (banjo, mandolin & fiddle), Mike Harrison (electric bass) and more—offering everything from modern sounds to heartfelt Americana styles
Check out all the 202 New RealTracks (in sets 456-467)
And, if you are looking for more, the 2025 49-PAK (for $49) includes an additional 20 RealTracks with exciting new sounds and genre-spanning styles. Enjoy RealTracks firsts like Chinese instruments (guzheng & dizi), the bandoneon in an authentic Argentine tango trio, and the classic “tic-tac” baritone guitar for vintage country.
You’ll also get slick ’80s metal guitar from Andy Wood, modern metal with guitarist Nico Santora, bass player Nick Schendzielos, and drummer Aaron Stechauner, more praise & worship, indie-folk, modern/bro country with Brent Mason, and “Songwriter Americana” with Johnny Hiland.
Plus, enjoy user-requested styles like Soul Jazz RealDrums, fast Celtic Strathspey guitar, and Chill Hop piano & drums!
The 2025 49-PAK is loaded with other great new add-ons as well. Learn more about the 2025 49-PAK!
Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box 2025 for Mac!
With your version 2025 for Mac Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition or PlusPAK purchase, we'll include a Bonus PAK full of great new Add-ons FREE! Or upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for only $49 to receive even more NEW Add-ons including 20 additional RealTracks!
These PAKs are loaded with additional add-ons to supercharge your Band-in-a-Box®!
This Free Bonus PAK includes:
- The 2025 RealCombos Booster PAK:
-For Pro customers, this includes 33 new RealTracks and 65+ new RealStyles.
-For MegaPAK customers, this includes 29 new RealTracks and 45+ new RealStyles.
-For UltraPAK customers, this includes 20 new RealStyles.
- Look Ma! More MIDI 13: Country & Americana
- Instrumental Studies Set 22: 2-Hand Piano Soloing - Rhythm Changes
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 44: Jazz Piano
- Artist Performance Set 17: Songs with Vocals 7
- Playable RealTracks Set 4
- RealDrums Stems Set 7: Jazz with Mike Clark
- SynthMaster Sounds and Styles (with audio demos)
- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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