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DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing #265570 10/15/14 03:41 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Hi all, I'm using Realband (RB) as DAW and a Roland Fantom G (FG) as keyboard. The FG has an internal audio card, which can be connected via usb to a pc and be used as input and output for midi and audio signals. So far so good. Midi record and playback runs flawlessy, midi port routing as well. A problem arises when I want to record audio from the FG into the DAW. Since the RB audio output of the other tracks is routed to the FG, it is mixed together with the instrument I want to record. Thus, in RB I have a mixdown of the single instruments with all the others that played in background during the recording. The question: how and where set RB to route the incoming output to the default PC soundcard, instead to the FG one ? There should be a way to record the FG, without to send the background playing tracks of the DAW to the FG, but I can't find the way in Audio Options of RB. Am I missing something obvious here ? I've tried also with Reaper, sadly with the same issue. Should I change the settings in the OS (System property), or inside the DAW ? Optionally: Could someone with a Fantom G share his/her experiences with the FG audio card ? Thanks in advance, Sergio

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265583 10/15/14 05:48 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC	You don't really ever want to use 2 sound cards at the same time. You can, but it generally simply leads to problems..... Pick one. Most folks use the sound card that's connected to the computer. Internals can be used.... but in my case, I don't use the internal sound card, I use an external card for ALL music related activities. Also be sure to use the proper driver that the manufacturer recommends. My external is a Focusrite Saffire connected by firewire with ASIO drivers. ALL inputs from audio sources, including mics and guitars go to this Focusrite interface. It routes the audio into the DAW as needed and into the track I want it to go to. This routing is selected from inside the DAW when I set up the track inputs. Saffire audio (left, right, and stereo) shows up in my audio input options and I simply select it as the input on a track by track basis. OUTPUT from the DAW is back to the external sound card (focusrite)by default, where I have my active studio monitors connected. I never need to select my outputs, only the inputs on a track by track basis. Midi works the same way. Midi into the focusrite, into the DAW as selected in the midi tracks in the DAW..... and audio back out to the focusrite. hope this helps You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing Guitarhacker #265699 10/15/14 11:09 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	@Guitarhacker, like I said, if I use only one audio card, that is, the one of the Fantom G, then all the audio tracks are routed back to the Fantom while recording, thus the recorded track audio material consists of the whole mix, while I want to record only the played instrument. I can't figure out why this is not possible in all the nowadays DAWs. Take Audacity, for example. It can record from the Fantom G using its usb driver, and route the output to the local audio card. Sadly it can't be used really like a DAW. Reaper can do it too - I have tested it and works, while Magix Samplitude Music Studio can't - I can confirm it because I've installed the try-out version of both programs. It's a pity that Realband can't do it too.. Still looking for a user-friendly and easy-to-use DAW. Music, games and more - Musica, giochi ed altro ancora

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265709 10/16/14 04:31 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC	Semar.... There are so many devices on the market.... and many of them try to do several things in one box. I have always tried to stay away from those sorts of things. Almost invariably, they cause some sort of issue when you try to use them to do certain things in a different way. Not saying that this is the case with your gear....I would need to see it and play with it to figure that out. Somehow, in the FG, the audio coming from the DAW is being placed on the input to the new track as well. Since I don't use Real Band as a DAW, I really don't know much about the track input output assignments. My personal preference is to use Cakewalk's Sonar as my DAW. To me, it is a much more versatile DAW, things are pretty straight forward, and it supports full duplex recording. Which essentially means, I can select any and all tracks to hear in my playback, PLUS I can monitor my live track being recorded in the mix and as I record, I know for a certainty that the only thing being recorded on that new track is the ONE instrument I have selected from the list of live audio inputs from the soundcard/interface. I still be believe the issue you have is directly related to the way the inputs are set up for that track. The F-G would need to have the physical circuits and software in it to keep the audio returning from the computer from getting mixed into the new stuff you are playing on it that is being recorded. The possibility exists that this is NOT the case. If that proves to be the case, nothing you do will resolve it. You would need to have an external interface. I don't know enough about the keyboard based workstations with built in interfaces to know for sure if that is the issue since I don't use one or own one. Do you know anyone who has a good interface you could borrow? OR...... go buy one at Sam Ash or Guitar Center because both stores IIRC have a 45 day no questions 100% refund policy. Het an M-Audio, Presonus, Focusrite, or equivalent USB based interface that uses ASIO drivers and see if that solves the problem. One more thought and question. As you are playing back and recording the FG output... this is where you are getting the other stuff in that track....I assume that you are recording this in AUDIO? Have you tried setting up a midi track, assign the midi channel something other than omni and try recording that way? Since it's not audio, you should not get anything other than the midi data recorded..... simply assign a softsynth of your choice to monitor and playback. Just curious..... Also... I use Cakewalk Sonar for my DAW.... Sonar now days but I used to use Music Creator with great results. I love PG's stuff, because there's nothing else like it on the market that does what it does so well, but when it comes to the Real Band DAW, I preferred the versatility I have in CW. I might be wrong, but to me, things just seem to be a bit easier to get the work done I need doing. Perhaps it's simply because I am more familiar with it's intricacies and functions. I know how to do what I need to do and Sonar does it well. I use Real Band in my work, but not as a DAW. One of these days, I will have another look and go at the RB DAW to see what it can do. I just need to find the time to set and play around...and that's hard to find. Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/16/14 04:52 AM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing Guitarhacker #265719 10/16/14 05:23 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Thanks for the insight Guitarhacker, you have some point here. The FG connects to the pc via usb. It is an Asio driver, and gives a "Fantom Input" and a "Fantom Out" port at disposal. On the FG side, I only set as input "usb audio", and arm the "mix" key. If I don't arm the "mix" key, nothing will be 'heard' on the FG, which also means, I can't hear any sound, since both DAWs (RB and Magix Samplitude) don't allow me to use different cards for input and output - as a 'simple' software like Audacity instead does. If I select Fantom G then I can only use fantom input for input and fantom output for output. If I select the internal audio card, I can use the internal pc audio card and because of this I can't hear any sound from the Fantom, since it is connected via usb. I don't think it would be possible to set the FG in order to keep the incoming DAW audio signal from being mixed in. But I will further investigate in that direction. With Reaper it works because I can use the FG Input for the input, and the local pc audio card for the output, hence no sound will be sent to the FG. The same applies to Audacity. The Midi side works as expected with no hassle. I'll definately give a try to Sonar, I think the X version has everything I need, is a bit pricey but hey, so are also the others. Since you are a Sonar user, do you know if from within the software you can select the external audio card as input, and the internal pc audio card (if any) as output ? Cheers, Sergio. Last edited by semar; 10/16/14 05:33 AM. Music, games and more - Musica, giochi ed altro ancora

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265725 10/16/14 06:36 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC	NO... Sonar is designed to allow the use of ONE sound card. Most of the professional quality gear will not allow 2 cards to be used together in sync. When you use 2 cards, the problem you have is that both of the cards have clocks and those clocks are NOT synced. That spells T R O U B L E.... Having said that.....It is possible to use 2 sound cards with Sonar..... people try to use their factory card and then use a USB mic for input.... the computer sees this as 2 cards... Sonar will run this but the sync issue and latency pop up real quick in this set up and it is really more trouble than most can deal with. It's always best to use one pro quality external interface and run everything through it. BTW: Sonar is a bit pricy.... BUT... you can either look at the "essential" version, which is actually what I use.... or look at Music Creator 6 touch version. It's even cheaper. But... no matter what direction you go, my advice would be to plan to get a decent interface as I mentioned. The interface can be straight up audio since the FG will let you send the midi in via USB.... it will simply show up in the list of available midi devices for midi tracks. You would run the FG audio output into the new audio interface input and life would be good. Monitor the mix from the audio outs on the interface. The pro level audio interface would route the incoming audio to the track and nothing else would be in there with it. Sometimes, it takes buying some better gear to do the job right. You know the old saying... The right tool for the right job.... and I like to add, don't buy cheap tools.... you get what you pay for. As a man who makes a living with my hand tools, I would never buy screwdrivers and pliers from Walmart to use in my work...or even at home. Same basic principle applies with audio tools, gear, and software. I also like to say that when you buy the interface, get a good one.... it's literally the heart of your studio. Everything going into or out of the mix will be processed through it. Don't go cheap on this vital component. Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/16/14 06:38 AM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265766 10/16/14 03:08 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA	If the audio device can't separate the in/out routing, it would be problematic. But I'd make double sure the device itself doesn't have settings on it for this. It would surprise me if audio in HAD to be sent out the audio out port. /It should at least be able to be routed to one of the headphone outs instead, or not sent back out I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing Guitarhacker #265769 10/16/14 03:17 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA	Quote: Most of the professional quality gear will not allow 2 cards to be used together in sync I disagree; most 'professional quality gear' do try to allow two cards to be sync'd. M-Audio, MOTU, etc. .. syncing cards is not impossible. As long as they are compatible (which often meant having two of the same device) it worked. Syncing two 'different' cards sure is another story though. I get the gist of what you meant, but the 'professional' part threw me, as they are more inclined to allow such things than consumer stuff. /I still have a gut feeling this whole thing is a setup issue on the actual device I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing rharv #265789 10/16/14 11:22 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Quote: If the audio device can't separate the in/out routing, it would be problematic. But I'd make double sure the device itself doesn't have settings on it for this. It would surprise me if audio in HAD to be sent out the audio out port. /It should at least be able to be routed to one of the headphone outs instead, or not sent back out Hold on, I've found this manual, in bold the interesting part: http://raptor.rolandgermany.info/assets/media/pdf/FGWS14.pdf Here an excerpt: Quote: Mix In Output Assign This parameter can add your live audio to your Fantom-G sounds, keep it separate, or —in Studio mode— send it through MFX. In: Single mode and Live mode: you can set Mix In Output Assign to: A— to combine the live audio with the Fantom-G’s main mix. B— to send the live audio directly to the Fantom-G’s OUTPUT B L and R pair or jacks. MFX 1— to send the live audio through MFX 1, and then into the main stereo mix. Studio mode: you can set Mix In Output Assign to: A — to combine the live audio into the Fantom-G’s main mix. B — to send the live audio directly to the Fantom-G’s OUTPUT B L and R pair or jacks. MFX 1 or MFX 2 to send the live audio through one of the available MFX processors, and then into the main stereo mix. You may want to send your live audio to the B pair of outputs in order to send it to a separate device such as a headphone amp or other monitoring system, an external processor, or a mixer if you’re working with a more complex equipment system. It all seems promising.. I'll test this configuration asap and let you know ! Music, games and more - Musica, giochi ed altro ancora

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265793 10/17/14 04:05 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC	Yep.... I too mentioned in a post back a few days that I thought the entire issue was related to how it was set up. DO let us know how you resolve this issue. Looks to me like the "studio setup" may be the answer. Last edited by Guitarhacker; 10/17/14 04:06 AM. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265852 10/17/14 02:08 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Eureka ! It works ! :-) Routing to "B" the incoming DAW signal does the trick. I just need a small external mixer now, in order to route it to the amplifier, but this is another task. I could just connect the B output jacks of the FG to the PC audio input for example, and use the PC speakers.. Thanks all for the help ! Sergio. Music, games and more - Musica, giochi ed altro ancora

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265861 10/17/14 03:15 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA rharv Veteran
rharv Veteran Joined: May 2000 Posts: 22,457 Mi., USA	If you have a Line Out of the computer you may be able to route the audio through that to the amp also. Select a different audio out port to try this. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome Make your sound your own!

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing semar #265880 10/18/14 04:13 AM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC Guitarhacker Veteran
Guitarhacker Veteran Joined: Apr 2009 Posts: 10,725 Middlesex, NC	glad you got this figured out without having to buy any new gear..... although, you have to admit.... new gear is always cool. You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.com Add nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.

Re: DAW, Fantom G and Audio routing Guitarhacker #266046 10/19/14 12:32 PM Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221 semar OP Apprentice
OP semar Apprentice Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 221	Originally Posted By: Guitarhacker .... although, you have to admit.... new gear is always cool. Absolutely Music, games and more - Musica, giochi ed altro ancora

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