PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums RealBand CC 11(expression) not controlling Sampletank in RB

Hello forum:
First up, many thanks to Noel96 for his post from ages ago (Dec.'12) re getting Sampletank to work in a GM-compliant way, with Omnisynth. It was mainly for Biab but the bit about GM drums was exactly what I needed in RB. I wouldn't have got to the starting line without you.
Now that I'm up and running (sort of), another problem occurs; I've tried to use controller changes for expression to bring drums and guitar into a song (Besame Mucho, using a Biab Cha Cha Salsa style), and it seems that Sampletank just won't listen to the CC11 instructions (starting at 1, then up to 127 after the first chorus).
It works fine when I revert to CoyoteWT, but no dice with ST; everything plays at full volume from the start.
It's Sampletank 2 that I'm using, inside RB 2011, on Windows 7 64 bit.
Anybody got any clues?
Clinton.

I'm not at my music computer so I can't look but look in ST docs for a MIDI implementation chart. That will tell you what MIDI CCs ST will respond too. Not all softsynths respond to all CCs so maybe ST does not respond to CC11.

Thanks Mario, I'll start there.
Clinton.
Some time has passed: I looked, and the only thing that's possibly appropriate - MIDI CONTROL association (3.6 in the manual) - is I think to do with external control i.e. outside ST, of its many sound-moulding possibilities; I haven't any idea about all that stuff yet, but I certainly didn't see where it might be used to make a change at a certain place in the tune, rather it seems to be all about modifying the sound itself.
I'm more or less guessing here, so if the above sounds all wrong then please (anyone) tell me so.
BUT, and here's the happy bit, your reply got me thinking: OK If CC11 doesn't do the job, what about CC7 then? It turns out to work quite well. I've come across warnings against using it as a volume adjust mechanism inside tracks before, but for a simple move at least it seems to be alright and if ST listens to the instruction and behaves itself, then there you are.
Clinton.

I found the docs to ST2.5 and it is very easy to set the volume to CC11.
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is straight from the docs:

3 - Controlling SampleTank 2

Click-on-the-MIDI-CTL-button-(figure-.45).
Click-on-any-of-the-knobs-you-want-to-automate-(figure-.46).
The-MIDI-CTL-Association-window-will-be-displayed.-This-window-contains-four-columns:-Knob-(that-include-the-name-of-the-knob-parameter),-the-Min-and-Max-values,-and-the-Controller-Number-(that-contains-the-controller-number-associated-to-that-particular-parameter-or-shows-N/A-when-no-controller-#-is-assigned-yet),-(figure-.47)
.Click-and-drag-on-the-Controller-Number-field-to-associate-a-MIDI-controller-number-to-the-parameter-that-you-want-to-control-(figure-.48).
To-disassociate-a-MIDI-CTL-from-a-knob,-simply-select-the-N/A(not-available)-value
-------------------------------------------------------------------

In simpler terms select a sound and put it is ST2.5.
Click on the MIDI-CTL button
Click on volume for the instrument you want to control with CC11
In the pop up window that appears left click and hold on the volume controller number and move the mouse up or down to increase or decrease the CC number. In your case move your mouse until CC11 shows, then stop.
Click ok and your done, now your volume is controlled by CC11
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

As you have read using CC7 for volume changes is a nightmare if you have to change volumes during the mix. With CC11 to change the overall volume you would just adjust CC7 and CC11 will follow along with your relative changes.

I hope this helps.

Hey Mario, thankyou so much!
I've just now followed your instructions very carefully, and hey hey what d' yer know!
I also had a play with other knobs than vol just to see what might happen, in order to see how else I might be using this routine down the track, and I think the light in this thick head is slowly coming on.
Thanks especially for the "baby steps" recipe, because it helped me both achieve my immediate purpose and led me to see where my previous idea about the MIDI-CTL association routine was completely wrong.
Clinton.

Clinton, I am glad that I could help.

Yes SampleTank does require CC11 to be assigned to CC7 to have an approximate effect on the sound levels. I have tried, over a number of years associating CC11 with other parameters such as Velocity with little success.

I have found that it is difficult to mix a combination of tracks using CC11 associated with CC7 in the Midi Format, but if each track is recorded to audio then mixing is easier.

It is useful to create a Multi in ST which contains all the associations you would normally use as a Standard Set Up for each new project.

Hi Lyn,

A CC will work for the duration of a note while velocity only works at the note's onset. Thus a CC will have little effect on velocity. This may be what you are experiencing.

Velocity is usually used for layered sounds. That is you will get different variations of a sound (mp, p, f, etc.) with a certain velocity. This of course depends on the number of layers. If it is not a layered sound velocity is used for the initial volume of the sound's attack.

I have been reading in another forum where someone was trying to use a CC to change velocity during a note's duration because as you know it is not only volume that changes with layers it is also timbre, harmonics etc. They wanted those to change along with volume. This can be only done by morphing between those layers and morphing can only be done if your software will allow it. Virtual instruments like SampleModeling's instruments allow morphing thus they are the most realistic sounding brass and woodwinds IMO.

I hope this helps.

Hi Mario,

Thanks for the information some of which I do not agree with fully. Velocity determines the volume of the note at the outset which is carried on at that level for the duration of the note unless affected by a CC7 or CC11 change. CC11 entries are intended to vary the note velocity with value 127 being the maximum sound available for that Note. CC7 is a track sound controller where value 127 would increase the sound level of the track to maximum. Pitch Bends and CC1 Modulation affect the sound quality.

Example:

Note Velocity 100

CC11 Value 120 = 100*120/127. Note Velocity reduced to = 94.5

Track CC7 value 127 then Note Velocity = 127.

If, as in SampleTank, there appears to be no parameter which allows CC11 data to operate as it does in a standard GM Synth then one does need to direct CC11 data to the Main Volume Control CC7. Mixing in Midi becomes difficult and IMHO it is easier to convert the tracks to Audio to mix successfully.

SampleTank does allow Midi Controllers to be assigned to any of the Edit parameters for a specific instrument. Whether or not you like the results is another matter.

Hi Lyn,

I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. Yes velocity sets the initial volume. I referred to that when I mentioned mp, p, f etc but obviously not is the most direct way. Sorry about that!

I think what may be causing some confusion is when I mentioned layers. ST2.x is old technology and I'm not sure it has velocity layers or not. Without velocity layers you will get the same initial attack and sound regardless of what your initial velocity and following CC7, CC2 or CC11 settings may be. That same sound will be either louder or softer with those CC changes.

With velocity layers the sound will change both tonally and in volume depending on your initial velocity and with good sound sets both volume and tone will change with those CC changes.

A perfect example is BiaB's Coyote sax, which is terrible, verses SampleModeling's sax, which is outstanding.

I agree that mixing in MIDI is impossible. I always mix in audio. I very seldom use the effects that come with my sound sources either. I like to use the identical effects in all tracks and that is easily accomplished in audio.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but I think we are on the same page.

Thanx MarioD

Hello Lyn and Mario,
It's really interesting to read your ongoing discussion, and would be even better if I had a better grasp of the topic. To that end, can either of you (or anyone) refer me to further information on CCs and their uses in musical terms?
Stuff I've come across previously seems to be long on technical detail - often beyond me - and short on the actual effects on the sound from using these controllers.
Also I haven't come across velocity layers before but from reading your conversation I get the idea that I should at least be on nodding terms with them. Getting a pointer towards reading up on them would be welcome.
Thanks, Clinton.

Hi Clinton,

Maybe this introduction to MIDI series will help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVJ0m3f0pjQ

There are three different parts to this series.

Basically MIDI CCs, continuous controllers, control MIDI devices. Some CCs are designated, like CC7, CC11 and CC2 are for volume, CC10 is for pan etc. Many hard and soft synths have other designated CC numbers that can control filters, effects etc. Each hard and soft synth will have a MIDI Implementation Chart that will show you what CC numbers that synth will respond with and what they control. All CCs can be assigned to anything you want them but it is very wise to keep those that are universally assigned like CC7, CC11, CC2, CC10 etc.

All of the better hard and soft synths have velocity layers. Most acoustic instruments will have different sounds if played soft to loud. If you have ever played one you know what I mean. Velocity layers emulate that subtle tonal change.

I wouldn't worry about velocity layers until you get a grip on MIDI CCs.

I hope this helps - MarioD

Hi Mario,
I had a look at the series on MIDI you recommended and found it useful for reinforcing my general understanding and clarifying some (previously vague) ideas I had on the topic.
No breakthroughs in how I might improve my handling of MIDI for now, but a quick look at the amount of related material on youtube, let alone the rest of the web, is a forceful reminder that it's all out there, just waiting for me to search it out and do the required study.
Interesting thing about velocity layers though,(at least I think that was what I was messing with) - I was having a close look at a piano chord voicing generated by Biab(looking in the piano roll window, clicking on one note at a time to hear them individually), and found myself quite disliking the sound itself(not the pitch in relation to the overall chord). The tone was sort of hollow and flat, and I thought, quite different to the general piano sound I had been hearing from my newly-aquired Forte-Dxi.
I wondered "Is this anything to do with velocity?" - it was low, somewhere around 40 to 50 I think, and so I auditioned that same note at various velocities from 127 down to very low (always adjusting my main output volume accordingly so as to be listening to the note at the same, or close to same volume), and I reckon I discerned 3 different "regions" of timbre - high velocity had a bright sound with a definite, strong attack, medium velocity had a warmer sound with a not-so-strong attack, and the low velocity was just unpleasant to my ears.
Clearly now I have to play a lot with different instruments in my synth to further explore these tambral (is that how one spells it?) variations, as it will have obvious consequences for the sound of the rhythm-section accompaniments I make (my main use for Biab & RB).
Nice to have a name (velocity layering, if that's indeed what I'm hearing) to go with the sound-perception.
Thanks again for the always useful and interesting posts.
Clinton.
OK,now it's a few hours later (than this original post and the evening following the above-mentioned Forte "piano experiment").
I've been trying out the same thing with a variety of other Forte sounds and have been sadly disappointed. "Bright piano" works the same, as one might expect, but nothing else I came across except a very subtle effect on the Nylon guitar - so subtle I'm wondering if I imagined it. Nothing on the basses (I tried acoustic and fretless), not the Rhodes, not other guitars (Jazz and I can't remember which other).
I seem now to remember something about "optimized for piano" somewhere in the Forte blurb - maybe I'm finding out the hard way what they mean.
Do not mistake this for a whinge about my synth - I think it's fine for about $40 - I'm demoing it at the moment and I reckon I'll pay up and keep it, and in the meanwhile I'll live and learn - in this instance, laboriously.
Clinton.

Hi Clinton,

I am pleased that you are interested in this subject. Variations in the sounds levels and qualities can be achieved using GM compatible Synths by a combination of CC1 Modulation, CC2 Breath, CC11 Expression and Pitch Bends. Other Samplers and Synths can be more complicated with the allocation of CCs to specific instrument parameters required. In addition, the levels of the controllers used varies from one instrument type to another. A developer can apply the various CCs by hand or if in possession of a Midi Controller Keyboard record at least the Bends and Modulation CCs on a different track using the same Channel.

I found the whole process quite confusing when I first looked at Midi implementation.

I would suggest that you visit Ntonyx.com site where there are a variety of Style enhancing programs. Some of these are very complicated and expensive but, I would suggest that you download version 1 which is FREE and install. I Beta Tested most of the Ntonyx offerings and have most programs installed but I use the free version for most files.

If you will do this then send me PM and I will provide you with the way in which this program easily connects directly with RealBand/PowerTracks.

Hello Lyn,
Just a quick reply because I've been sitting at this screen too long already, which is NOT GOOD for me.
Thankyou very much for the suggestion - I will visit the site and most likely download the free version.
I am indeed intriuged by aspects of sound production, but I really have to think seriously about how far into it I want/need to go as my primary focus has always been developing as an improvising musician (Tenor and Alto, mainly the latter these days), and that's an interest that demands a lot of time.
How many passions can a person have without disappearing into a black hole of self-absorbtion?
I think your post crossed over with my edit of the previous one, by the way.
I really do value the generous advice and encouragement given by yourself and others on this forum, and I also wonder how some of you frequent posters get time to practice, eat, go outdoors, be with family etc.
Speak of which, my dogs are waiting for me.
Bye, Clinton.