PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows Using Kontakt with BIAB

Do users here usually get good results with Kontakt? I load instruments, assign the correct instrument numbers, and I usually get a mess. I also have Sampletank, the instrument quality doesn't comapare to Kontakt, but I almost always get good results. I've been thinking of getting Goliath I think I've read it is generally GM friendly. The sounds are great but I read more complaints of the Goliath's PLAY engine than any sample interface out there.

I love the Kontakt interface as a DAW plugin, just for the record.

I use Kontakt 5 player with the Session Strings library. The Session Strings are excellent.

However, the VST never gets remembered and defaults each time a load a song. I have to call up the VST and reload it. I've reported this issue but so far nothing. Is that the mess you get?

I use Kontakt but only in Sonar.

I know why...

I too have found many programs that work and play better with Sonar, but I have had issues using midi files generated by BiaB. Using drag and drop I import them into Sonar and everything works flawlessly, but what I have found is that when I go back a week or a month later, the midi files don't play right. They look normal in piano roll view but many of the notes simply don't trigger anything. For example on a drum track the kick and snare notes don't play. Or on a string pad with long held chords, the middle note won't play.

Keep in mind I have Sonar 5PE which is older but still pretty robust

To elaborate, I have four MIDI options: TTS-1, ST2, Ketron SD2 and Kontakt. The first three work fine with little tweaking, even in STs's case where I have to load instruments, no big deal. Kontakt almost always requires a lot of tweaking to get the song sounding good, and often I cannot get it to sound as good as my other options. Sometimes drums will not play correctly, or I just cannot get strings or horns to sound right (and by right I simply mean the way all the other MIDI devices I have are playing them). But when I do get things working in Kontakt, it sounds very very good indeed.

I think the problem relates to the fact that BiaB (and RB) don't correctly store and recall the VST settings. Connecting to external hardware MIDI devices doesn't require this operation, but a soft-synth does. That's the frustration I have anyway.

just an FYI

There is a difference between GM "compatible" (as listed in the EW literature on Goliath) and GM COMPLIANT and it is a difference with a distinction. Translation, you can't just load up a GM MIDI tune and have it get all the part maps right. You have to load the sounds a part at a time, exactly like Kontakt, Sampletank (sans the Omni Synth 2 add-on), VI One, or any non GM COMPLIANT synth - internal VSTi or external HW.

Also if it's East-West - there will be a dongle required (and I quote form their requirements)

"iLok required (not included)"


No argument, from a sound perspective it does look interesting OTHER than the iLok thing - that's why I never bothered with EWQL or other EW products


IF YOU GET IT let us know how it works out,
good luck

Larry

Also, with Kontakt instruments, you will find that the supported note range of playable sounds is not same as with a GM synth. Also, the mapping of sounds is not necessarily the same as the GM standard. That is why you sometimes get note dropouts. I've found some of the basses respond in a different octave than what BIAB outputs, so that has to be adjusted as well. I'm not being negative about Kontakt; it's just the realization that it's not plug and play.

I found it a real PITA trying to use Kontakt in BiaB, again it is not an issue for me as I use Kontakt in Sonar, so I stopped messing with it.

As John said you have to make sure that all the notes BiaB generates for an instrument falls in the range of Kontakt's instrument. If you are getting dropouts that are within Kontakt's range then double check Kontakt's polyphony.

As for the drums not playing be sure that the MIDI drum patch you are using is mapped for GM drums. Many drum programs or patches have their own drum maps. If you don't know what that means it's one program or patch will have, for example, a kick drum on MIDI note C1 while another may have it on C2 or any other note. Drums can get confusing very quickly!

I have never had a BiaB MIDI track or tracks not play correctly after they have been sent to Sonar and correctly aligned with any VSTi. Also in Sonar everything sounds much better when using non GM MIDI programs like Kontakt, SSD drums, AD drums etc.

Yes... generally a Kontakt sound is a sampled sound. So the note range of a given instrument in Kontakt corresponds with the actual playable range of the live instrument in most cases.

So yeah, if you have a part generated by BB or some other source including live midi.... and you have a Kontakt sample loaded.... if the source midi goes out of that instrument's range you will not hear those notes and assume it's dropping notes when in fact it's not. Load a violin sample and use a double bass midi source part.... you will see.

This is a very tricky and complex subject. Most big name and expensive sampler/synths like Kontakt like to pride themselves for being accurate. Take bass for example. If you're having bass dropouts have you checked if the actual part is supposed to be played on a 4 string or 5 string electric bass or is it an acoustic? Do you know the correct range of notes for all those basses? How about a guitar vs a banjo? Same for all the horns. If you're going to be accurate and correct then you as the music producer have to know this stuff. This is where people will say all I want to do is make some music and have some fun. That's ok until you start getting picky and want things to really sound correct and good. Then you have to be aware of all these issues.

In our case here, the source midi is Biab. Check how Biab generates the different instrument parts. I can't tell you exactly how it works but sometimes Biab will produce notes that can be considered to be out of range for some instruments. What if you're doing a SRV song where he tuned his guitar to Eb so then an accurate low E bass note is the Eb? If you didn't set that up right that Eb will sound an octave higher or not sound at all. If you're missing bass notes change the bass instrument from a 4 to a 5 string and see if that helps.

This stuff is not easy sometimes. This is why we say Biab works best with a GM synth and then that always begs the question that has been asked countless times on this forum, "Where can I find a better GM synth?" And of course the answer to that is there's only a few pure GM synths around.

It's been said a gazillion times here, Biab is great for what it does but what it's not great at is acting like a full DAW for finishing a project. This is why everybody talks about moving the Biab tracks to a DAW for completion.

Bob

Personally I find the trickiness of using Kontakt to be one of BIAB's biggest shortcomings. Yes, one can drag a midi file into one's DAW and play it through Kontakt there. But that is not the same as being able to use Kontakt easily within BIAB, because often composition and patch choice are mutually dependent. That is, the instrument you are playing through impacts your choice of what to play through it. Having to imagine how a BIAB-generated track will sound through a Kontakt library is a big workflow speed-bump which disrupts the creative cycle. My 2 cents anyway.

I guess Rewire is not an option?

Been watching this thread for a while now and all I can say is,... what?


I AGREE with the "composition and patch choice are mutually dependent" statement but not the premise that that is a BIAB shortcoming?

I use Kontakt (FULL Kontakt, not the free player) the SAME way in BIAB that I USE it in Sonar, Reaper, Cubase, Mixcraft 7,.. actually the same way I use ANY non-GM compliant SS in those same programs.

It is no harder or easier, for me anyway, to use in BIAB than in Sonar?

What you describe should/will also happen in SONAR or Reaper. Any time you first load or "generate" a new MIDI only song in ANY DAW. You have to PICK a softsynth patch, or external HW module patch, or both, for each instrument that you think is BEST for that PART for that SONG?

Larry

Hi Larry
If you set Kontakt as a VST in BiaB and set an instrument, other features etc, then close the song and shutdown BiaB. Next time to start BiaB and reopen the song, are all your Kontakt and other VST settings still there?

This is quite hit-and-miss for me (even more so in RB)

Thanks
Trevor

Short answer, YES: IF I set Kontakt (SampleTank, Dim Pro, Omnisphere, Sample Moog, AD 2, VB3, whatever) in the INSTRUMENT slot (i.e., the individual slots for Bass, Piano, Drums, Guitar, Strings, and Melody, Soloist) and NOT the default slot.

If want to use ONE instantiation of ONE synth then you would set a VSTi/DXi in the DEFAULT slot and set channels and patches for each BIAB instrument. IN that case, then YES then there is an extra step, two actually, needed within BIAB (which I didn't learn until Dec):

1) Use the Plug-in pull down "Save Group" and name a .tgs file for that song, and

2) When you RE-OPEN THAT song in BIAB use "Load Group" and re-load the .tgs file.

(you can also load that .tgs in Realband same way)

The problem with NOT USING a GM compliant multi-timbral synth, like TTS-1 or Forte or even the GS Wavetable, in the Default slot is that you cannot use single voice VSTi/DXi's like Cakewalk Sound Center, VB3, AD2, unless of course you ONLY NEED one DXi/VSTi voice part (maybe everything else is Real Tracks/Real Drums).

In that case, you CAN STILL use a single voice synth (e.g., VB3) or the four parts of Dim Pro (or all 16 of Kontakt or SampleTank or…) and use favorite drums (AD2, EZDrummer 2, Jamstix) in the Drum slot, and favorite string pad (e.g., Omnisynth) in the Strings slot, etc. BUT YOU MUST THEN SAVE a .tgs for the Default slot settings - if you want to re-call them.

As to VST's (audio FX) I don't use VST's very much in BIAB but I also don't use BIAB as a DAW either. I input songs (progressions) or work out a motif idea and let BIAB give me some fresh melody ideas, sketch out tune and then move into Sonar (usually, because it's what I've been using since DOS - old dog new tricks thing).

However, the VSTs, at least FOR ME (?), SAVE and RECALL the same way within BIAB as do the VSTi's: Either saved with song in the individual Plug-in pull down Instrument slot, or as part of the saved .tgs file.


ALMOST FORGOT: your hit and miss maybe because whatever was set LAST in the Default Synth slot before closing BIAB or RealBand for VSTi/DXi's (and VST/DX's if any) is what is there when you re-open BIAB or RealBand and loading a song that had a DIFFERENT synth for the Default synth does not change that (unless you re-load that .tgs file)




Larry

Thanks for posting this. For me, this is the type of thing that is not made clear and causes people like me to run back to the most familiar DAW as soon as I attempt something that BiaB 'doesn't do'.

This thread may also be of interest.

Yes, Larry's "almost forgot" issue is THE POINT that was causing me problems i.e always defaulting to the last opened instance in BIAB.

However, I find that none of these issues are being seen in RB. In RB, I can use SampleTank 3 or Kontakt 5 and not have any problems with patch recall as long as they are VSTi's.

If on the other hand, I use the DXi version of SampleTank 2 in either BIAB or RB, that's where the "mess" that VideoTrack mentioned starts.

Try using VSTi's in RB, I think you'll find it works much better.

Jeff

This thread may also be of interest.

Yes, it is, thanks!