PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows BIAB and Native Instruments Kontakt

Hello Everyone,

I would like to run BIAB into Native Instrument Kontakt as a player.

I know I have to map some channels from BIAB to match particular instruments in Kontakt.

One question is: Do I create an "Instrument Bank” in Kontakt, where there is only one MIDI channel and instruments are changed by MIDI changes, or do I create a “Multi” in Kontakt, where each instrument has it’s own MIDI channel?

Also I am wanting to have my MIDI keyboard connect to Kontakt through ASIO4All (to reduce latency), so I can play along with BIAB. Not quite sure how to do that.

I have watched the U-Tube posted by PGMusic and it does not give quite enough information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATxpEPVtUS4


Your thoughts Please and thanks so much.

Fritz

First you were watching a Mac video - general concepts are similar but menus and "how to's" in windows BIAB are different.

Now for a very SIMPLE (simpleton actually) answer: if you have a particular set of instruments for a particular song in BIAB already set up on the right channels within Kontakt then you can save that as a bank ("Save Bank") (which is a PG BIAB/RB save function that creates an .fxb file) not the Kontatk (.nkb) file (which is what I think you want), then you can recall that set up for that song in BIAB or RB (won't be very useful, in general, outside that song) or as a Multi (in Kontakt - "Save Multi as") again won’t be real useful outside that BIAB/RB song (in general).

I say in general because you might have a particular small comob (a favorite upright bass, EP, vibes, guitar, flute, and drum kit and you use them form 90% of you jazz tunes then this will be GREAT for all tunes that use that "combo" )

The more complex answer, the one where you can send program changes to Kontakt and get it to change instruments on that channel (e.g, respond sort of like a GM module or HW module, it will not actually be GM complaint, but close enough for this discussion) is:

If you want access to all 128 GM sounds on EACH part (up to 15 parts/channels reserving one MIDI channel, Ch 10, for drums) then you will need a lot of memory and probably need to be running the 64 bit version of Kontakt, on a 64 bit OS using JBridge with BIAB and RB.

to learn "how to" you need to read "Kontakt 5 Application Reference" manual, page 32 and all of Section 9 starting on page 82 where it talks about instrument banks (this is where you create the/a Kontakt .nkb file).

However, with a little more judicious planning on your part you could get by with a smaller memory requirement for BIAB's/RB's use of Kontakt as "GM mini-module" using "subsets or groups of instruments" to match BIAB's use of those channels.

To it this way remember BIAB has set aside (i.e., the defaults)
Bass is on Ch 2
Piano on Ch 3
Drum on Ch 10 (as usual)
Guitar on Ch 7
Strings on Ch 6
Melody on Ch 4
Soloist 8 Ch 2
And, harmony on Ch's 11-14

So you could make a NI Kontakt instrument bank on ch 2 of all possible "basses" you might use - maybe that's a dozen or so.

Then you could make a NI Kontakt instrument bank on ch 3 of all possible pianos (including EP's and organs etc.) you might use - maybe 2-3 dozen or so.

Now you could make a NI Kontakt instrument bank on ch 7 of all possible "guitars/strings" you might use - maybe that's another dozen or so.

Now you could make a NI Kontakt instrument bank on ch 10 of all possible drum kits you might use - maybe that's another dozen. (although GM usually has fewer).

And so on.

The hard ones are the melody, soloist, and harmony - since you might have a "it depends" what instrument types are even in the running depending on song type so then you create a few dozen such instrument banks (saved as a new "multi" each time) with all the ABOVE but each new bank has a different set of instruments for melody, soloist, and harmonies.

finally, using ASIO and an input thru channel is whole another discussion if you really are new to this.

Note, first off you may not want to use ASIO4ALL - but it depends: what is your audio device and does it not have it's own native ASIO driver? If it does then use, or at least try, that FIRST it's probably better than ASIO4ALL.

then make sure to set the ASIO in BIAB ("Opt. -> MIDI/Audio Dries setup" then click on the "Audio settings … (ASIO) " button bottom right and select your ASIO driver (either your audio HW native ASIO driver or ASIO4ALL).

When using Kontakt (or any VSTi/DXi) plug-in with BIAB, and usually any DAW, the audio output will be routed to the BIAB select audio driver - so nothing else to do there.

Next make sure you have selected, in the:
"Opt. -> MIDI/Audio Dries set -> MIDI Input Driver " your input MIDI port that your keyboard is on.

From there whatever is set on Channel 5 within Kontakt SHOULD play when you play the keyboard (but you won't hear anything until you hit the play button in BIAB)

Good Luck
Larry

Hi Larry,

You have given me a huge wealth of information. So very helpful. Note that I already have my MIDI keyboard working with ASIO4All, and talking with a grand piano in Kontack with a latency of about 12 ms which is acceptable. It works very well. So I was going to see if I could get BIAB talking with Kontakt along with my MIDI board. So that would mean having BIAB coming in one Port of Kontack (A, B, C, D ) and my keyboard coming in another port (as opposed to going "through" BIAB. I have a lot more reading to do, but your thoughtful and detailed reply is really helpful. There are a lot of issues like for example, how does Kontakt behave if it gets a MIDI signal for a channel that one has not set up. Does it lock up etc. I will post how I am coming along with this project.

Fritz

First, the above exhausted my Kontakt "expertise." I use Kontakt, and Sampletank, and Dim Pro, and Rapture pro, and most of the rest but I don’t get into the bowels with key switches, layering, etc. I MAINLY use external HW synths because I have a set of "go to" sounds spread across many HW synths and HW is a whole lot less finky and FASTER to use!

Having said that, I have a few general suggestions:

I am assuming you are on Windows ; if on Mac can't help and ignore this.

1. These are just some places to get some info and FREE utilities that will make you life a lot easier doing what you are trying to do. Go to here

http://bandinabox.wikia.com/wiki/Accessing_Multiple_Midi_Ports

and read this article and go get both MIDI Ox & MIDI Yoke and MidiRedirector

http://www.midiox.com/

[Note that MIDI YOKE will install in Win 7 64 but it is ONLY seen in 32 bit apps like BIAB, Sampletank 2.5, Mixcraft 7 (32), etc. it is NOT seen in SampleTank 3 or Kontakt.exe 5 (both 64 bit apps). Separate from MIDI Yoke, MIDI OX will come in handy so get them both].

MidiRedirector (link is on that wikia page) - at some point you will use it.

There is another free (as long as not used for commercial use) great utility Loopebe1

http://www.nerds.de/en/loopbe1.html

I also use and can recommend Loopbe30 (but it's NOT free but allows way more connections then I have ever used). One of these days I might even play with their LoopBeAudio.

2. Before I suggest "how to" what is your AUDIO device and DOES IT have a native and usable/working ASIO driver? I really recommend giving your native audio HW ASIO driver a try before just using ASIO4ALL (it works and I have used ASIO4ALL but now I mainly use only my M-Audio FW 410 ASIO driver.)

3. Info point - if you didn't already know this: ASIO can ONLY be used by one program at a time.

See

http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=237170

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/feb06/articles/pcmusician.htm

However this appears to be an anomaly for me on my machine: because looking at this "how to" to answer your question I discovered on MY PC MACHINE (Win 7 64 with Realtek audio chip) with MY ASIO drivers (M- Audio FW ASIO driver AND ASIO4ALL v2) that I seem to be violating the above premise (that is that only one program at a time can use ASIO).

I can play BIAB using either my FW ASIO or ASIO4ALL and as long as I run Kontakt, Sampletank 2, Sampletank 3, etc. (the standalone versions of these softsynths) with the OTHER ASIO driver I can play songs in BIAB and play along with a separate standalone softsynth. I just discovered this - I've never really tried this because I didn’t need to, didn't want to, and besides I thought it wasn't going to work!


Be nice if one of the TRUE ASIO experts here would explain how that's possible.

NOTE, I CANNOT use the SAME ASIO driver on each (BIAB and external softsynth) simultaneously, however.

Only reason I bring up MY possible "quirk" is because THIS might WORK for you (but I don’t think it is suppose to) if you can run both your HW ASIO driver and ASIO4ALL - then your life gets real easy:

1) set up BIAB on one ASIO, and

2) set up the standalone Kontakt to use the other ASIO driver and have Kontakt look to your MIDI IN port (whatever that is) in my case it's my MIDI Sport A or B or my iRig Keys or…).

Back to probably reality (i.e., only one app can use the audio "ASIO" at a time)

If only one app can use ASIO then, if you are playing BIAB and USING ASIO and you also want to play some standalone/separate instantiation of a softsynth (i.e., the standalone Kontakt.exe) at the same time then you will either have to use MME, or other higher latency driver, in EITHER BIAB or in your additional external standalone softsynth (e.g., Kontakt.exe). Which means one or the other may very have a very large audible lag relative to your keyboard playing!

Even if you luck out and can use HW ASIO with one and ASIO4ALL with the other - I assume you want to RECORD the MIDI you PLAYED into that separate softsynth?

If you played along in BIAB (via thru channel into either the Melody or Soloist track - (BTW - those are the only two tracks in BIAB you can record MIDI on) you could easily record your MIDI data and have it be part of the song.

If not via BIAB then you need to route your Kontakt MIDI OUT to some other application that records MIDI data in real time but then you will have to figure out and hassle with how to MERGE all the BIAB and "elsewhere recorded" MIDI data into one song (either as all MIDI or audio). If that is your ultimate goal (record what you play along with in real time) I suggest learning how to do it in BIAB or RB.

Good Luck
Larry

Again what can I say but thank you for these wonderful ideas so much appreciated. I use Windows 7 32 bits. My current BIAB is 2012 version but I would upgrade if necessary. My sound is the vanilla computer sound and it does not have any ASIO. The goal is to be able to use Kontakt as the synthesizer and to “play along” with BIAB with low latency on the MIDI keyboard.

Well, I will confess. In the beginning I “faked” it and it worked perfectly. What I did was to have my MIDI keyboard driving Kontakt through ASIO4All. I set Kontakt to the Vienna Grand Piano. And that’s all I had Kontakt do. The luscious Kontakt Vienna Grand Piano used the Computer sound system which was just the vanilla sound not a sound card etc. Next I set BIAB MIDI Out to drive an external Roland SC-8850. Next I had an external Audio Mixer where I mixed the SC-8850 audio output and the computer sound output from Kontakt into one stereo channel. And there you have it. I could run BIAB and play along with the Kontakt Vienna grand with low latency and it all worked like a charm with no timing issues. Could also run BIAB alone or play piano alone if I wished.

So why am I wanting to make the change that we have been discussing. Simple, the Kontakt sounds are magnificent, and the SC-8850 sounds are much less quality than the Kontakt. If possible (and this is a big if) I want to do all sound generation in Kontakt.

I have a question which I should know the answer. When I set MIDI Out for BIAB what is in the list is various devices and synthesizers that I may or may not have installed.

I still have not resolved the question of what does BIAB put out for MIDI in live mode. I don’t mean here saving out to a file which can be set to a Type 0 or Type 1 but rather the live MIDI output. Is the live output like Type 0 (all instruments on a single track but each instrument on its own channel (Kontack Instrument Bank), or is it like Type 1 which puts each instrument on it’s own channel (Kontack Instrument “Multi”). Or when you set a “device” for BIAB MIDI output does BIAB decide what to put out based upon the device chosen? So if Kontakt is not on the list what does on do?


OK on MIDI Ox and MIDI Yoke. I will go get these and study their functions. Maybe I may have to “combine” the MIDI Data from my keyboard and from BIAB before inputting to Kontakt.

I do recall that ASIO can only be used by one program at a time.

Thank you for the URL’s I will look at and study them. I used the ASIO only on keyboard input to Kontakt. What I am trying to do now is to feed Keyboard and BIAB into Kontakt with keyboard with low latency. I didn’t realize that BIAB might need an ASIO driver too. I was going to try and run Kontakt stand-alone to keep things simple – oops.

So your point is, I have my keyboard running into Kontakt through ASIO and my plan to “sneak” BIAB into Kontakt (in some way without using ASIO), there is going to be a mismatch in timing between BIAB and my keyboard because one is using ASIO and (ostensibly) BIAB is not? Oh dear, that is a bit of a snag.

OK on your ASIO anomaly. I would be interested in why that works. But it looks like I am going to need the ability to run two ASIO drivers at the same time.

Thank you for your suggested steps in setting up an arrangement with Kontakt.


Fritz

1. forget "sneak" there is no "sneak:" MIDI data goes where you ROUTE it, period (even if you are nto sure how you did it). I appreciate that this whole area can be confusing to a new MIDI user or a NEW PC user of softsynths and VSTi/DXi synth plug ins and DAW's.

2. I think I figured out your "issue," concern, or confusion, please look at first picture. You are probably confused by either (under BIAB Menu Opt. -> MIDI/Audio Drivers Setup ->)

a) the "MIDI Output Diver" column not listing Kontakt, or

b) the "Synthesizer/Sound Card" column not listing Kontakt, or

BOTH?

If that is the case then just go to pics 2 and 3 and go find, load, and set Kontatk as your default VSTi synth.

Note checking that box in pic 2 sends MIDI data generated by BIAB to the selected VSTi (a.k.a. "Plug-in" synth or software synth) INSTEAD of sending it out your MIDI port, which in turn goes to (in your case sounds like) your SC-8850. YOU are STILL responsible to pick what sounds you want on which Kontakt parts/channels (see my first post listing default BIAB MIDI channels for each part).

In first picture, the first two columns simply list HW (or software emulated) MIDI PORTS [not external/internal MIDI synths or VSTi/DXi synth plug ins]. Don’t even worry about the third/last column right now (probably never need to worry about it at all).

Once you get that all figured out THEN the previous info dump about ASIO and its use by BOTH BIAB (playing a Kontakt VSTi) and a separate instance (standalone) of Kontakt triggered by YOUR keyboard should make more sense? May not help you get there (ASIO limits, PC capabilities, etc.) however.

Thank you for this added information. The images were helpful in clarifying your points. I noted in one of the PGMusic training videos that Steinberg makes an ASIO driver that will operate with two applications. Perhaps this might be useful for what we have been discussing.

I think I have enough information, thanks to you, to proceed with my project. I will post how I am doing as I go along. I am sure there will be a question from time to time.

Fritz

Yes there is a multi- ASIO client/app - it may or may not work for you. Not sure you need it but...

GOOD LUCK
Larry