PG Music Home Forums PG Music Product Forums Band-in-a-Box for Windows best sound card?, best midi keyboard/controller?

Advice needed for the fairly techno-ignorant, installing BIAB 2009 on a Toshiba laptop which only has integrated sound on the motherboard. It does have Windows Vista op. sys., has the necessary RAM, processor and hard drive capacities. What's the best sound card and midi keyboard/controller? I've read in the forum about DXi vs. sound card, still am not sure if I need a sound card, or just DXi, or sound card AND DXi. From what I've read, writing chords and melodies from the laptop keyboard looks like a lot of work. I'd like to get a simple midi keyboard to "play in" (to BIAB) melodies and chords, not sure what's best. I will be using BIAB to (hopefully) mute out either the bass line or guitar line so that students can play along and learn their songs. I would really like a professional sound; a too "synthesizer-y" sound will drive me nuts. Any advice on the best sound card and midi keyboard / or midi "controller" would be wonderful.....thanks...

Start simple with the minimum of outside stuff and LEARN BIAB.

You can use the built in soundcard, ASIO4ALL free driver converters and the included VSC DXi MIDI synthesizer to do this job.

You will need only a MIDI Keyboard Controller (or other MIDI controller instrument, MIDI guitar, WIDI, etc.) and a USB MIDI connection to the laptop.

The USB MIDI connection can be part of the MIDI Controller these days, as many controllers come with USB connection on them or it can be an aftermarket USB-to-MIDI connector such as sold on this website.

Your assumption is correct, I *only* do realtime MIDI recording from keyboard to yield my Melody and Soloist tracks for BIAB. If you can play, it is the only way to go IMHO.


--Mac

Hi,

As you have BIAB 2009 and want to mute only the bass or guitar then VSC DXi and RealTracks will give you excellent sounds for piano and drums

jazzman

Okay,
I'll tackle this one.

" I've read in the forum about DXi vs. sound card, still am not sure if I need a sound card, or just DXi, or sound card AND DXi."

'For $1,000 Alex, 'What is the difference between a hardware component, and a software synthesizer?''
DXi and VSTi are names given to software synthesizers. There are others, such as RTAS for Pro Tools, and probably a few more. VSTi and then DXi are probably the two most popular. A synthesizer is any device that creates a sound, in this case, a musical note in response to a specific input. The DXi and VSTi are software, meaning that it's all done in software. BUT, it needs some hardware to actually be heard. This is where the sound card, or sound chip on your motherboard comes in. The sound chip converts the information from the software synth, and turns it into analog voltages which will drive a speaker, amplifier, or headphone, i.e., 'sound.' For the most part, a DXi without a sound card is useless. There are some exceptions to that rule, but for the most part,it stands true.

Now, you can purchase a hardware synthesizer, such as a keyboard workstation, which combines the midi inputs, the software, and the sound card all in one device. Press a note, hear sound. Some even come with built in speakers, so you don't have to hook it up to an amp.

A MIDI controller is a 'dumb' keyboard, no internal sounds of its own, and sends MIDI data to a synth, either software or hardware.

" From what I've read, writing chords and melodies from the laptop keyboard looks like a lot of work. I'd like to get a simple midi keyboard to "play in" (to BIAB) melodies and chords, not sure what's best."

Melodies, you can do that, chords, you can not. Band In A Box, as part of what it is, requires that you input the chords in a step sequence, usually by typing them from the keyboard. It's not hard, it's fairly quick, and in the end, to me, it's a lot easier. It's also very easy to change out a single chord, if you wish to make some sort of substitution.

You can, however, record input from the keyboard for the melody. So, if you're playing a song with five parts, i.e., Drums, Bass, Guitar, Piano, and Strings, and you wish to add a melody, type in the chords for the song, find a style you like, and make sure it sounds okay, then press the 'Record' button, and record the melody line in from the controller keyboard/wind synth/guitar/whatever you're using.
At that point, you can mute whatever part you wish to allow your student to play along. Band In A Box will regenerate the parts each time, so they'll be different each time you play the song.

" I would really like a professional sound; a too "synthesizer-y" sound will drive me nuts."

Pro sound requires pro dollars, for the most part. Two ways to get around that. First, buy the SuperMegaUltra Pak, or whatever they're calling it these days, that has the full set of Real Drums and Real Instruments in it. At this point, you can generate BACKING tracks with the Real Drums/Real Instrument tracks, but they are still limited in style and scope at this time.
Band In A Box is 'General MIDI' based, meaning that you'll need to have a synth capapble of GM sounds. Which, today, includes about every one of them. But, let me say this, the concept that General MIDI sounds are horrible is false. It is possible that a manufacturer will take the absolute best data they can use and create a bank of General MIDI sounds that will blow you away. The problem with that, for the manufacturer, is if you do that, how do you sell the other sounds on the synth.
For the most part, synths like the Roland VSC DXi, or other software synths, IN MY OPINION, do not stand up to a good hardware synth. But, then the question becomes, how much do you want to pay for a good hardware synth? Five hundred, $1,000, or maybe $2,000? How about $3,000 or more? All of that is available, and all reflect different concepts of what a 'good synth' is.
I use an Arranger keyboard, a Korg PA800.
Listen to some of the demos of this keyboard here: http://www.korgpa.com/pa_root/en/products/pa800_demo.html?en

Street price on this unit is $2,800. But, the sound is nice.

However, that may be a bit rich for your blood. However, you *can* get a 'sound module' which is the sounds, a couple of connectors and the output for a few hundred dollars. In fact, PGMusic sells the Ketron SD2. You can demo the demos of the SD2, SD4 and SD5 (all of which use the same sound set) here:
http://www.ketronus.com/demos.php One of those, for $379US and a 61 key MIDI controller like this, http://keyboards-midi.musiciansfriend.co...ller?sku=703607 for $200 will give you a sound that *is* professional, and won't sound too 'synthy-ish.'

If you want to record the audio outputs from the synth into your computer, you will need then to get an interface for the audio (you'll need one for the MIDI anyway) so that you can record. The sound card in your laptop is not going to be up to the task, but there are many different available devices you can purchase for a relatively minimal cost.
This works well for the MIDI interface: http://www.pgmusic.com/um1ex.htm
This will work well for the audio interface: http://www.pgmusic.com/ua1x.htm

Combined, those two units, along with the Ketron SD2, the 88 key controller, and the Band In A Box Ultra Pak, with 80GB USB hard drive http://www.pgmusic.com/bandbox.htm will give you a fantastic combination that will allow you to present to your students completed works for them to play along with and study from.

Finally, something else that very few places will give you is this...a team of knowledgeable, willing, friendly users in a forum who will take the time to walk you through, step by step, what it will take for you to get from 'techno-ignorant' to producing CDs.

Gary

Hi,

As you probably already know, the main component for pro sound will be your sound system... speakers and amplifier. Your Laptop speakers will never give you pro sound no matter how much you spend on other gear.

For an inexpensive laptop setup I would recommend a USB Audio interface (Edirol or other brand) preferably one with a standard midi in/out feature just so you have it if you need it later.

Then use the USB Audio device out to a good set of powered monitors. (KRK, Roland, M-audio ... on up to studio grade. Even the cheap ones are pretty decent.) There are even USB powered speakers available now. I don't know how good they are.

Your built-in sound card will be adequate for the audio. For the Midi sounds, I would suggest that you try the included DXi or VSTi (Roland) Virtual Sound Canvas that comes with BB first, before you decide to get something different.

I also recommend getting the Real Tracks versions if you can afford it. I just bought the Audiophile HD version this week and couldn't be happier. Some midi sounds are usable, but I will be using the Real Tracks for the most part. (So what I'm saying is spend your money on the Real Tracks, rather than on a different midi sound module.)

Finally,

You don't need a piano/synth keyboard unless you need it to perform on. If you're a keyboard player you'll want one. If not, you don't need it. Entering chords in BB is easy. Get a USB mouse if you don't want to use the trackpad. (I use a $25.00 Logictech Trackman Wheel. Highly recommended.)

Hope this helps,
Dean

If you really want to get a keyboard controller, Yamaha has a new line of controllers (no sounds on board) that are not too expensive.

There are about 5 models including:
KX49 - 49 keys
KX61 - 61 keys
KX8 - 88 weighted piano style keys.

I have a lot of Yamaha gear and have never been disappointed in the quality. M-Audio also makes some inexpensive controllers, but I can't vouch for the quality.

Gary,
I am in the process of upgrading my single performance jazz unit. I use BIAB and an old Roland external SC-D70 hardware synth module. It has served me well. Had lots of professional Jazz performances. It has sound card capability built in as well as synth sounds. It is now time to upgrade and get a great external professional sound synth. Your comments about the Ketron SD2 are very educational. The sounds have professional quality. I am looking for modules to keep my footprint small and not a keyboard. Do you have any other suggestions for hardware synths that work with BIAB. I was looking at the Roland SonicCell sound module, but do not know much about it. I am looking for suggestions. Thanks
lb

The sonic cell is running about $999. and it will do just about anything most people would want. There several good youtube vids on this unit, you might want to check out. Wyndham

Thanks for your advise. Do you have any other suggestions for professional sounds.
Thanks

L bass, as Dean mentioned, don't overlook Real Tracks. Although I have a Roland Fantom XR for MIDI, which has a few more sounds than the Sonic Cell but is similar, I find myself using it less and less.

"Professional Sounds." I know what you mean, but I guess, in my mind, I can see a three year old at the piano and the producer saying 'press *that* key a 'little' harder.' NOT professional.

In a sense though, that isn't too far off target. However, it isn't the people who play the notes, but more like the people who record and produce the sounds. A Yamaha piano is still a Yamaha piano, but if you do a 'pro' recording session versus something less, the sounds will be different.

The fact of the matter is that to get the better sounds, specifically 'sample/playback', you're going to have to spend more money. That often includes larger RAM or SSDs (Solid State Drives) which tend to be more expensive, the storage for those sounds in a ROM. Then, for something like a keyboard, the playback system, etc.

Matt brings up Real Tracks, which is my opinion, if you're putting together backing tracks on the fly as a 'generic track', then those work very well, and of course, aren't samples, but real musicians playing. Hence, the sound from that is very pro, considering the people playing the stuff. But, if you're looking for the riff from Peter Gunn or The Pink Panther, you won't find it there. So, everything has it's place.

My opinion is that Bang For The Buck, right now the SD2 is one of the best options. You can look at Yamaha's Motif Rack, some of Korg's stuff, Roland has some stuff, and Ketron also offers a couple of other things.

Gary

Gary, if you were to compare apple to oranges for a moment. How you you rate the roland sounds from the sonic cell or other roland sound banks of today with the sd2 sound banks.
The reason I'm asking in this way is because if the sound banks of the 2 are almost the same then the difference in price are the extra features in the sonic cell.
I don't know what the differences are in how the sound banks are created. It seems that is where we need to get to to understand what each sound bank has to offer. Do you or others know what the technical differences would be and if so how much does it matter.
The next part is to assume that the sound banks play through a quality sound system since the best sounds out of a bad sound system gives poor quality.
Thanks Wyndham

I have a Sonic Cell and love it but I'm also cheap and live in the Los Angeles area. With patience, I can find virtually anything I want on Ebay locally. There's thousands of starving musicians around here who need to get rid of stuff. I picked it up for $425 used and was able to check it out in person first. This is probably not an option for a lot of folks depending on where they live. For that price, no comparison with the SD2, the Sonic Cell has many more very cool features. Comparing new prices though, different story. The SD2 sounds great and for half the price of the Roland, I would have probably gotten that if I were forced to buy new. As for sound quality, I checked both units out on youtube and other sites extensively. They both have excellent sounds and unless you're looking for some unusual synth or special effects or something, either one will do the job.

Bob

Thanks Bob. I tried trading some of my pottery to Tony at the music shop and he was not too keen on the idea, he wanted the $$$$$$$. I really like all the other features the Sonic Cell has and glad to get an idea of the quality of the sounds.
I was generally wondering if you compared the different brands of sound modules that are in the different name brand KB's if on the standard sounds like piano, guitar, etc if there is very much quality difference these days.
If you did a blind test of the top 10 including the SD2, if there would be that much difference. I'm starting to think they all need to be really good just to be competitive.
That's a great price on that Sonic Cell BTW, thanks Wyndham

Ketron makes a unit that is a lot like the SonicCell in function, it is called the MIDJAY. It also costs about the same or more than the SonicCell does. But it has the identical MIDI sound engine that the SD2 has in it, more or less.


--Mac

Thanks Mac, the price i saw for the MIDJAY was $1750. It seems that Ketron's products are a bit hight than others except for the SD2. They have a new arranger keyboard out that runs $5500. They must know some way around this depression I don't know.:)
Wyndham