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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273
Apprentice
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273 |
I just installed the DXIForte Demo on my BIAB2014. I want to evaluate it against CoyoteWT that comes with BIAB. TBH, when I use a Hi-Q MIDI Synth Patch, I don't hear any difference between the two.  However, when using a standard MIDI Patch, I DO hear the difference. So my questions are: 1. Am I missing some kind of setting that would differentiate the two? and, 2. If not, why install/use DXIForte when using Hi-Q MIDI Synth patches if the sound is the same with CoyoteWT? I'm switching between the two by simply clicking the "plug-ins" icon in the taskbar near the top. Perhaps I'm not activating each plug-in in the correct way? Thanks!
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,826
PG Music Staff
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PG Music Staff
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 7,826 |
When you are using a HiQ sound, Band-in-a-Box is using SampleTank to play the instrument, rather than using any other MIDI synth like the Coyote Wavetable or ForteDXi.
Andrew
PG Music Inc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273 |
When you are using a HiQ sound, Band-in-a-Box is using SampleTank to play the instrument, rather than using any other MIDI synth like the Coyote Wavetable or ForteDXi. So, just to clarify, ForteDXi is only for use with sounds OTHER than HiQ MIDI?
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,950
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When you are using a HiQ sound, Band-in-a-Box is using SampleTank to play the instrument, rather than using any other MIDI synth like the Coyote Wavetable or ForteDXi. So, just to clarify, ForteDXi is only for use with sounds OTHER than HiQ MIDI? The Coyote Forte works with ANY midi in BIAB. BIAB defines HiQ sounds as the ST2 collection of VSTs which it provides. So if you are listening to a HiQ Sound you are using ST2 as the sound source (by definition). In otherwords if you select the option to use HiQ sounds with a midi track it will open ST2. So no such thing as "HiQ MIDI". Perhaps you are confusing SuperMidi or RealMidi with HiQ Midi? It is easy to do.  That's the way it works. Unless someone comes and corrects me? 
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273 |
When you are using a HiQ sound, Band-in-a-Box is using SampleTank to play the instrument, rather than using any other MIDI synth like the Coyote Wavetable or ForteDXi. The Coyote Forte works with ANY midi in BIAB. BIAB defines HiQ sounds as the ST2 collection of VSTs which it provides. So if you are listening to a HiQ Sound you are using ST2 as the sound source (by definition). In otherwords if you select the option to use HiQ sounds with a midi track it will open ST2. So no such thing as "HiQ MIDI". Perhaps you are confusing SuperMidi or RealMidi with HiQ Midi? It is easy to do. That's the way it works. Unless someone comes and corrects me? Sorry, I phrased my question poorly. What I meant to ask was "Is it normal for a HiQ (Sampletank) MIDI patch played thru Forte DXi to sound no different (ie - no better)than playing it thru Coyote WT?" As I said previously, other types of files DO sound better. It's just the HiQ MIDI files that sound the same (to my ears). Thanks.
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Sorry, I phrased my question poorly.
What I meant to ask was "Is it normal for a HiQ (Sampletank) MIDI patch played thru Forte DXi to sound no different (ie - no better)than playing it thru Coyote WT?"
As I said previously, other types of files DO sound better. It's just the HiQ MIDI files that sound the same (to my ears).
Thanks.
I guess my answer was not clear either. You can not play a HiQ (SampleTank) Midi Patch thru Forte Dxi". Sampletank and Forte Dxi are the same thing. They are both sound synths. You can use one or the other. There are NO HiQ Midi files - BIAB has two types of midi files 1) the conventional historical C7 computer generated midi which is how it started out and 2)SuperMidi Tracks which are midi recorded by an artist. Now here is what I think you are asking. Will SuperMidi tracks sound the same when played via the ST2 Vst synth versus the Forte Dxi. The answer depends a bit on the instrument but I believe in a blind listen-test few could distinguish the two. They are both very good. That's my story and I am sticking to it until someone corrects me. By the way both ST2 and Forte are way way better than the Coyote wavetable which comes free. But I think you already noticed that. Once the synths start costing money, there is a diminishing return on investment. I have both CoyteForte Dxi and ST3 and for most of the sounds there is not a big difference to my ear.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Here is a test for you. Can you pick out the $15 piano syths from the $300 ones? http://floydjane.com/Songs/Piano.htm
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 12,844
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As I understand it, Hi-Q MIDI is just the name PGMusic gave to the sound set they created to work with SampleTank to play back your music. It has nothing to do with the notes being played (other than it is one way of playing it). PGMusic actually provided the instrument samples for this (versus something you purchased from IK-Multimedia or some other third party provider that works with SampleTank).
ForteDXi is just another sample player that uses the DXi interface to play back MIDI based on the GM2 standard. Those sounds originated as "giga" format sounds (if I recall, and I even remember that Mac at one time substituted some sounds from his extensive Giga library to use with ForteDXi). As such the sounds generated will be similar, but won't be the same as what you get in SampleTank.
ForteWT is strictly a DXi wrapper for the MIDI sound library that ships with Windows, which doesn't sound very good, but gets you up and running quickly without spending any additional money. Those sounds are completely different from the sounds in ForteDXi, as well as the Hi-Q MIDI sounds played through SampleTank.
Standard BIAB MIDI tracks are generated based on rules established by the StyleMaker and then generated by the Style engine within BIAB. The resulting MIDI data can then be played by whatever MIDI sound choice you wish (Sampletank using their own sounds or the PGMusic Hi-Q MIDI sounds, ForteDXi, ForteWT, Cakewalk TTS-1, your external MIDI module, your external MIDI keyboard, some other third party VSTi library - such as Kontakt or Steinberg's Halion...whatever you choose).
SuperMIDI tracks are actually MIDI phrases recorded in real time by session players, much like RealTracks, and within BIAB are processed by a different engine than standard StyleMaker defined MIDI parts are generated. However, the sound you get from them depends upon the sound source you select. By default, PGMusic has married these SuperMIDI files with their Hi-Q sounds (because then they are balanced properly as recorded and sound consistent), but you are free to choose whatever sound source you wish to use.
I hope that made sense.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273
Apprentice
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OP
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Very helpful link, Thanks! (I just wish it included a sample from ForteDXi). So.....It looks like the bottom-line consensus is that, if you already have Sampletank 2.5 installed, there's no real reason to purchase DXiForte?
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 20,586
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Bert,
One reason that having Coyote Forte or TTS-1 from Cakewalk installed is that it is a general midi syth and if you ever run any of the BIAB midi styles (not Supermidi), having a general midi synth is useful. Sampletank is not a general midi synth.
A general midi synth will automatically provide sounds on all midi tracks without any setting up if the VST/DXi option is enabled in MIDI Drivers. A non-general-midi synth, needs to have the sound for each track set up independently for each song.
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2026
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 12,950
Veteran
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Veteran
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Very helpful link, Thanks! (I just wish it included a sample from ForteDXi).
I tried but BIAB was not cooperating for me that night.
So.....It looks like the bottom-line consensus is that, if you already have Sampletank 2.5 installed, there's no real reason to purchase DXiForte?
No, that is the wrong conclusion. You will need both. ST2 with BIAB is free and you will find that the sounds and flexibility (ease of use) of DXiForte are worth the $40.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273
Apprentice
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OP
Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 273 |
Noel and JazzManDan, Thanks for all the info provided. I think that basic understanding of this is finally getting thru my thick skull (albeit slowly :)).
One last clarification requested -- Neither ForteDXi or Sampletank play any role in enhancing the sound output of Real Tracks, right? They just help with MIDI?
Also, when recently cleaning up my hard drive to recover some space, I somehow deleted Sampletank 2.5 from my laptop which is my main BIAB/Music computer. (Up until now, I've been experimenting with DXiForte/CoyoteWT/Sampletank only on my desktop PC where it's all installed).
I haven't checked the BIAB manual/help file yet, but what's the easiest way to re-install Sampletank 2/5 onto my laptop? Do I need to re-install ALL of BIAB 2014 again? (I'd prefer to avoid that if at all possible.)
Thanks again for all of your help with educating me about this.
Kawai VPC1 MIDI Controller; Asus A53E Laptop running Windows 7 - 64 bit; BIAB 2017 UltraPlusPak (upgraded from 2014 EverythingPak), running from Laptop's Hard Drive.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: Aug 2011
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Hey Newbert,
You must have asked a pretty good question because you're sure getting a lot of answers to it.
Regarding the Hi-Q sounds, it is confusing because of they are used with midi supertracks.
When you load a midi supertrack, Sampletank2 and a preselected Hi-Q instrument patch are also loaded. PG Music has "somehow" (I don't know how and it really doesn't matter for this discussion) associated that a specific Hi-Q instrument will be used with each midi Supertrack. However, you, the user can always over ride the preselected Hi-Q instrument selection and by making your own instrument selection.
So, in summary,
Midisupertracks is a marketing name PG Music has given to musical midi phrases created by real musicians instead of by a software program.
SampleTank2 is a soft synth provided by PG Music.
Hi-Q instruments are soft synth patches that can only play inside the SampleTank 2, SampleTank 2.5 and SampleTank 3 soft synth platforms.
PG Music provides the Hi-Q soft synth patches.
PG Music associates a specific Hi-Q soft synth patch with each midisupertrack. This selection can be over ridden by the user.
Both midi supertracks and Hi-Q instruments can be used independent of each other.
Hope this helps.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Joined: May 2000
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and I even remember that Mac at one time substituted some sounds from his extensive Giga library to use with ForteDXi I know I have done this in the past also. Not sure if the current versions still allow tinkering with this though.
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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